|
Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2013 9:29:24 GMT -6
In the absence of conclusive (meaning not just circumstance or opinion)evidence to the contrary the man should be presumed to be honorable, and his story taken at face value. Haven't enough men connected with this battle been branded drunks, and cowards, all without truth.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 3, 2013 9:49:14 GMT -6
Kanipe mentions the packs to Benteen and Benteen sends him back to the pack train. Martin carries a note that contains the packs twice.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2013 9:50:18 GMT -6
Apparently the Army thought that Knipe was a good soldier or he was a good soldier or both, as he was promoted to Sgt at a time when promotions were like hens teeth. With that being said a good NCO when given an assignment (In this case a message) will do his utmost to carry out this assignment. Knipe had clear sailing to the pack train and never delivered this supposed message. Why not. Can anyone come up with any reasonable reason why he didn't, other than he was not a messenger and had no message to deliver from Tom Custer or anyone else.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2013 10:11:02 GMT -6
OK, then don't ever again object to anyone saying that Reno was a drunk/coward, or Benteen a coward who disobeyed, left his post yada yada yada. None of us were there. None of us know if T Custer sent him or not. None of us know for sure what he was instructed to do. All of it is here say, and trying to connect the dots. You cannot object to what some do in regards to Reno and Benteen, perhaps others as well, and be at the same time willing to place the mark of Cain on Kanipe, without a shred of proof.
Privately I don't believe him either. I believe the story was made up to cover himself, but I have no proof of it, so it dies there.
|
|
|
Post by mac on Oct 3, 2013 11:00:31 GMT -6
I am up way too late!!! Fair enough QC, does it really matter in the scheme of things anyway? Night!
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2013 11:08:10 GMT -6
No it does not. It is a distraction from the study of the battle, one that has absolutely no impact on decision making, or the overall performance of the units involved. It is one of those things, I believe, that people point to and say - You see I am a ( scholar, know more than you do, Custer supporter, Benteen hater, Reno hater, etc, etc, etc, name your poison). Much ado about absolutely nothing.
The Army of the time was a small place, still is. Army posts even smaller. Had anything untoward been suspected at the time, I have no doubt that it would have been spread widely, and further, Mrs. Bobo, later married SGT Kanipe, and I don't think that would have happened, had he been suspected of being a coward at the time. Maybe, but not likely. In the end only he knew.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2013 11:58:17 GMT -6
OK, then don't ever again object to anyone saying that Reno was a drunk/coward, or Benteen a coward who disobeyed, left his post yada yada yada. None of us were there. None of us know if T Custer sent him or not. None of us know for sure what he was instructed to do. All of it is here say, and trying to connect the dots. You cannot object to what some do in regards to Reno and Benteen, perhaps others as well, and be at the same time willing to place the mark of Cain on Kanipe, without a shred of proof. Privately I don't believe him either. I believe the story was made up to cover himself, but I have no proof of it, so it dies there. What do you mean not a shred of proof both Capt McDougall and Lt Mathey testified that no Knipe or any other Sgt brought a message to them. Are you saying they are liars. As far as defending Reno, I will defend him or anyone else any time a choose to. Not one person other than Frett and Church (At 2200 hrs) said Reno was drinking or drunk. If you want proof there isn't a shred of it that says he was drunk. As far as coward. I have never called any of these soldiers cowards and I will object to anyone that calls them the ugliest of terms you can say about a soldier. I have said before I don't believe there are cowards on a battlefield. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2013 14:08:32 GMT -6
Can you swear that T/ Custer did not send him from your personal knowledge. Just because Mathey and McDougal did not receive a message is not proof that a message was not sent, and that Kanipe was not the messenger. You may not apply one standard of proof for one, and apply a second standard to another. Well I guess you can, but in so doing credibility is lost for both.
The only thing you are offering as proof is your opinion that officers don't lie or are mistaken, and enlisted men and noncommissioned officers do. Hardly proof. It is just your opinion. based only upon what you think. Are you really willing to acuse a man of being a coward and of desertion in the face of the enemy based upon what you think, and nothing more?
I believe it was DeRudio that made the statement - It is a good thing we were led by a coward or we would all be dead -referring to Reno. What weight do you give that statement? Was Reno a coward based upon DeRudio's word? He was an officer too.You place great store in Custer saying to Porter - There will be great killing today - and draw from it that Custer was intending to kill everything in site. Do you have personal knowledge that this was Custer intention, or was it an off hand remark, meaning something completely different? More importantly did Porter have any proof as to the meaning of the statement.
You look at these things from one perspective. I look at them as a officer what has sat on a court martial, and realizes things are not always what they seem to be, and that evidence not opinion is what counts when you are holding a man's life, career, or reputation in your hands.
Also, if you wish to repost my post, please read it in its entirety, before you go off on half cock.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2013 14:45:38 GMT -6
Can you swear that T/ Custer did not send him from your personal knowledge. Just because Mathey and McDougal did not receive a message is not proof that a message was not sent, and that Kanipe was not the messenger. You may not apply one standard of proof for one, and apply a second standard to another. Well I guess you can, but in so doing credibility is lost for both. The only thing you are offering as proof is your opinion that officers don't lie or are mistaken, and enlisted men and noncommissioned officers do. Hardly proof. It is just your opinion. based only upon what you think. Are you really willing to acuse a man of being a coward and of desertion in the face of the enemy based upon what you think, and nothing more? I believe it was DeRudio that made the statement - It is a good thing we were led by a coward or we would all be dead -referring to Reno. What weight do you give that statement? Was Reno a coward based upon DeRudio's word? He was an officer too.You place great store in Custer saying to Porter - There will be great killing today - and draw from it that Custer was intending to kill everything in site. Do you have personal knowledge that this was Custer intention, or was it an off hand remark, meaning something completely different? More importantly did Porter have any proof as to the meaning of the statement. Also, if you wish to repost my post, please read it in its entirety, before you go off on half cock. If you are going to use personal knowledge as a litmus test for proof of an opinion then we may as well close the board down as it is obvious none of us has any. All we can do is take what facts are know and draw our own opinion of them. To me there can only be three choices for Sgt Knipe. 1.....He was not a messenger 2.... He was a messenger but a lousy NCO and decided not to deliver it 3....He was a messenger, delivered the message, and McDougall and Mathey are liars I choose #1. you can choose whatever you wish or come up with another, which is fine by me, I never mind being corrected. I don't know what part of your post that I didn't read that makes you think I am upset with you because I am not. I will say however, that I wish you would stop putting words in my mouth and then lecturing me about it.I never said that Officers never lie or make mistakes but that enlisted men and NCOs do. Nor did I ever call Knipe or anyone else a coward, perhaps you should read my entire post where I said I don't believe there are cowards on a battlfield
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2013 14:50:39 GMT -6
Well I believe then if you believe there are no cowards on a battlefield, you are completely mistaken in your beliefs. There are. You not believing there are, or not wanting them to be there, does not change fact. I point to the man who would not get out of his hole and advance with the rest of his company, and was later shot. Was he not a coward? Uncontrolled fear makes cowards of us all, and a man can earn the Medal of Honor one day and be a weeping cringing coward the next. It is human, and unless you overcome humanity cowardly acts on a battlefield will be just as much a presence as gunpowder. It just does not fit in with your red, white, and blue American soldier, and that is your problem, and none of mine.
The last line is what I think you either did not read or did not understand where I said I did not believe him either (an opinion) based upon what I read, and what I have deduced from that reading. That however is opinion and not proof.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2013 15:21:25 GMT -6
Well I believe then if you believe there are no cowards on a battlefield, you are completely mistaken in your beliefs. There are. You not believing there are, or not wanting them to be there, does not change fact. I point to the man who would not get out of his hole and advance with the rest of his company, and was later shot. Was he not a coward? Uncontrolled fear makes cowards of us all, and a man can earn the Medal of Honor one day and be a weeping cringing coward the next. It is human, and unless you overcome humanity cowardly acts on a battlefield will be just as much a presence as gunpowder. It just does not fit in with your red, white, and blue American soldier, and that is your problem, and none of mine. The last line is what I think you either did not read or did not understand where I said I did not believe him either (an opinion) based upon what I read, and what I have deduced from that reading. That however is opinion and not proof. Chuck...I have said this before in the past but I will repeat it now. Men like Custer and Benteen are rare by that I mean fearless. They fear nothing. The vast majority of soldiers do have fear when going into combat but again the vast majority are able to overcome that fear and do their duty. There are those few that cant overcome their fear. But they should not be branded as cowards. The term coward tends to mean that's who you are, or what you are. But that is not true The same soldier that fails in his duty one day or one battle, may be charging a machine gun the next. That's the way I feel about it. If this is my red, white, and blue problem, so be it. Its my opinion and you have a right to disagree with it if you choose. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2013 15:28:54 GMT -6
Custer and Benteen were no more fearless than you or I. You are making something of these two that defies humanity. Every man has a breaking point. Courage is nothing more than the control of fear. You show me someone who makes the statement that he is never afraid, or has never been afraid, and I will show you both a liar and a damned fool.
Why do you think demonstrations of courage on a battlefield as a tool of leadership matter? It is to calm fear, a fear that can turn instantly to panic, and then to a cowardly act. Have you ever read Red Badge of Courage? If not, do so - TONIGHT. That will explain it far better than any words of mine.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2013 15:45:21 GMT -6
Custer and Benteen were no more fearless than you or I. You are making something of these two that defies humanity. Every man has a breaking point. Courage is nothing more than the control of fear. You show me someone who makes the statement that he is never afraid, or has never been afraid, and I will show you both a liar and a damned fool. . You are saying exactly what I said. Believe it or not I was going to use "The Red Badge Of Courage" as an example of how a man could turn and run one day and take the most dangerous task (Carrying the flag) the next battle as an example. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Oct 3, 2013 16:38:40 GMT -6
Dan: I met a woman once, very attractive, about 50 or so, with an absolutely beautiful head of dark brown hair. We were in a pre-Chemo Class together, and she was, you could tell very afraid. There was just the two of us, and the nurse giving the class was called out of the room for some reason. During this interlude she turned to me and asked if the Chemo had caused me to lose my hair. I said no, I have not yet started either, and I'm afraid it was my mother's insistence that I have her genes. She smiled and then began to laugh, her fear gone. She died with courage about a year later. Human beings are fragile things.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2013 17:28:02 GMT -6
Dan: I met a woman once, very attractive, about 50 or so, with an absolutely beautiful head of dark brown hair. We were in a pre-Chemo Class together, and she was, you could tell very afraid. There was just the two of us, and the nurse giving the class was called out of the room for some reason. During this interlude she turned to me and asked if the Chemo had caused me to lose my hair. I said no, I have not yet started either, and I'm afraid it was my mother's insistence that I have her genes. She smiled and then began to laugh, her fear gone. She died with courage about a year later. Human beings are fragile things. Chuck...Well said. May that fine young lady rest in peace. I sincerely hope that things are good with you my friend. Be Well Dan
|
|