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Post by desertlobster on Jan 26, 2009 17:28:57 GMT -6
1. Wouldn't he have run into Boston Custer on his way back? Odd that he doesn't mention it. Martin mentioned it.
2. He mentions that he was lucky in that Sergeant George Finckle's horse caused George to slow up. Thus, he got to take the order instead of George. Why would Sergeant Finckle be the one to do that? Martin said that Custer had 3 orderlies that day: himself, Kanipe, and Bischoff(?).
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Post by rosebud on Sept 18, 2011 18:09:09 GMT -6
1. Wouldn't he have run into Boston Custer on his way back? Odd that he doesn't mention it. Martin mentioned it.
Good question desertlobster. I see no one ever answered your question.
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Post by fred on Sept 18, 2011 18:52:23 GMT -6
Good question desertlobster. I see no one ever answered your question. Actually, I never saw it. Of course he would have. But why would Kanipe want to have seen Boston? Boston would have told his brothers, "Hey, I saw that sergeant you sent back!" "Really! And which sergeant was that, Bos?" Seems like too much exposure for someone too interested in hiding something. Better to keep it to himself. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 18, 2011 19:10:16 GMT -6
I thought you might say that Fred. If Custer lives he is going to find out anyway, so that does not work for me.
Boston would still meet Custer and tell him about meeting Kanipe and Martini. Kanipe will have nothing to lose or gain by keeping silent. Especially two days later when he knows Custer and all of his men are dead.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 18, 2011 23:06:16 GMT -6
Random thoughts on Sergeant Kanipe.
Was there anything on the record that would suggest that Sergeant Kanipe would not conduct himself in an honorable manner either before or after LBH?
Would Sergeant Kanipe, considering he acted dishonorably have any way of knowing that Custer would not survive. That is already ploughed ground, and the answer is no. Would he have any way of knowing that messengers would not be sent by Custer, who could put the finger on him?
Did Martini ever put the finger on him?
Was carrying a message to the pack train a legimate mission worthy of sending a messenger?
Is there any piece or even shred of evidence existing to point the finger at this man for being a phony and concockting the story that he was sent as a messenger?
I know next to nothing about this man. What I do know is 1) That if it was his intention to do just that he was taking one hell of a chance on being exposed and; 2) He had no idea if he was retreating from danger or entering into an even more dangerous situation by doing what he did.
Until someone provides conclusive proof that this man deserted his post, by pretending to be a messenger, then I must assume he was a messenger and what he did and what was reported he did was in conjunction with his duties as assigned.
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Post by wild on Sept 19, 2011 1:25:08 GMT -6
And He leaves at a time when there is no indication of what is to come He draws attention to himself by reporting to Benteen. His message fits nicely with Martin's ps bring packs message. Sergeants falling out of line are very conspicious.
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Post by fred on Sept 19, 2011 6:18:29 GMT -6
This damn Kanipe business is going to drive me batty.
No, Queenie, Kanipe was a good and respected NCO, with no blots on his record.
That means nothing when it comes to combat.
To me, there are just too many odd things about Kanipe's story, and I know you are all going to give me a "reason" or "justification" for supporting him and for checking off each of my "bullet points," but it doesn't matter. An opinion is just that, and there are still too many loose ends with this tale.
So let's just say these guys are riding along, fighting is beginning in the valley, Custer's command has swung its way beyond Reno Hill, and is humping the small, SW shoulder of SSR. Men are moving rapidly, adrenaline flowing, nerves beginning to jangle.
Kanipe already knows several men-- including men from his own company-- have dropped out, their horses unable to keep up. Kanipe gets a bolt of fear, and decides this is all a little too much for him, and he will drop out as well. Events move on, but without Kanipe, and he starts back toward "perceived" safety.
So Kanipe heads back, but he is worried... after all, he is an NCO and has a good rep.
He spots a rider coming toward him... the rider is in a real sweat (Boston Custer). Kanipe avoids him... you can do that there... there are plenty of defiles and small gullies along the route.
Suddenly, Kanipe grabs hold of himself and concocts a plan. He head back and attempt to speed the packs, or some such subterfuge. When Tom Custer or Henry Harrington ask him where he's been, he simply tells them his horse couldn't keep up, so he fell back and joined the nearest unit... oh, and by the way, as a good NCO should I hurried the packs along because I knew you would be needing the men and extra ammo.
While it may sound a little Hollywoodish, it ain't implausible. Of course, when he found out they all died, he was in the clear, though he never suspected Martini's return. Still in all, it didn't matter.
Now... the bogies: (1) Martini claimed to be the only messenger Custer sent back. This was in reference to the Goldin hogwash, but Martini never mentioned Kanipe, leading me to believe he never knew of Kanipe's Wild Ride.
(2) Why would Custer send back two almost identical messages within minutes of one another when he hadn't even fired a shot?
(3) Why would Custer use an NCO at this stage of the event when he was short NCOs, especially with a message of little or no import?
(4) Why did Kanipe make no effort to return, or never tell anyone he was told to do so? Voss returned; Sharrow returned; and Martini admitted he was told to do so if he could.
(5) Why did Kanipe tell no one who sent him back, until after he knew everyone was dead? Benteen tells us Voss told him that Custer wanted...; same with Sharrow; and we all know about Martini and the note.
(6) How come Kanipe never relayed his so-called message to either McDougall or the pack train CO, Mathey? We think we know he got back that far because one of the civilian teamsters saw him, exhorting them to move more quickly.
(7) Why would Kanipe be the chosen one? He wasn't an orderly that day and Custer had plenty of them to choose from: there was still Martini-- who, despite the language problem, got a far more important message to deliver, albeit written; there were Mitchell and McIlhargey from Reno... I Company men whose bodies were identified on LSH, leading us to believe Custer or Cooke had not released them back to their company after they delivered their message from Reno. And there was trumpeter Dose from G Company who was also an orderly.
(8) Custer was an absolute stickler for military protocol. Why would he deviate here by choosing a non-orderly?
(9) Anybody ever do a "timing" analysis of Kanipe's Wild Ride? I have. His is easy. You know where and when he left; you know where and when he arrived: 2.6 miles; 3 MPH. Heady stuff there. Maybe he stopped for lunch.
(10) Notice he never said anything to anyone-- during the event-- about running into or even seeing, Boston Custer.
To me, explaining it was the easy part. If I remember correctly, there were as many as 15 stragglers up to this point. No one would think any the worse of him with that as an excuse. Besides, this was combat, and who knows what goes through a man's mind under such circumstances.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 19, 2011 7:25:18 GMT -6
Fred: Anybody and everybody can get cold feet. You make a strong circumstancial case, but one I fear that would not hold up in a court of law. You are probably not trying to do that though. The truth is I do not know why he went other than what he says was the reason. Nor does anyone else.
The one thing that no one mentions about Kanipe is that he later married the widow of 1SG Bobo. I would think that she trusted the man. I would suspect she would not have, had she thought that this man Kanipe ran out on his unit, her first husbands unit, immediately prior to her first husband and all with him getting whacked. I think that fact belongs in the circumstancial evidence pile, although she would not be the first woman taken in by a bounder.
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Post by fred on Sept 19, 2011 7:44:09 GMT -6
Queenie,
I know the case is circumstantial; I don't hold it to be anything else. I am also aware he married Bobo's widow, but I have had that flung back in my face, as well.
As for people getting cold feet, I understand that too, though I would suspect Dakota Meyer wouldn't.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Sept 19, 2011 7:52:48 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
I see some very logical arguements for and against Sgt Knipe, based on solid research. Mine of course is not. I dont have a solid opinion one way or the other. I would lean if forced to do so , that he wasnt sent by anybody. The one thing that puzzles me isnt based on research but just my own intuition, and that is why would an experienced soldier and NCO yell to the men" Hurah boys weve got em" when nobody had gotten anybody and perhaps he already knew Reno was getting trounced.
Be Well Dan
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Post by rosebud on Sept 19, 2011 8:03:40 GMT -6
(2) Why would Custer send back two almost identical messages within minutes of one another when he hadn't even fired a shot?
If....When Kanipe was sent back, it was to notify the pack train. And everyone said that was the goal, not anything to do with Benteen. They might still think that Benteen would be in or near the LBH ready to start down the LBH.
Martini is sent back to Benteen. This is 10 to 15 minutes later or longer. By this time Custer has gained higher ground and could have looked back and spotted Benteen in upper South Fork.
Custer now knows that Benteen will be in the same area as the packs as he comes down Reno Creek. That is the reason he includes the bring packs into the message to Benteen.
Kanipe is a messenger to the pack train and ....accidental runs into Benteen Martini is a messenger to Benteen.
All the old books, even Camp have Benteen in South Reno and not in No-Name creek. They even have maps with the trail drawn in. But that's an argument for another day.
Quincannon, I agree with your post.
My confidence of Boston riding to meet his brothers is failing rapidly. There are just to many that never speak of Boston passing Benteen. Kanipe is just another on that list that should have something about Boston and yet there is nothing.
There are some that say Custer might have told Boston to stay in the rear. I think it is more likely that he would say .... Come on Boy, We are going to have some fun today, you don't want to miss it by staying with the packs.
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Post by wild on Sept 19, 2011 8:51:33 GMT -6
The timing of his departure and the detailed contents of his message is very fortuitous visa- vi Martin's message.It is pirma facia cirumstantial evidence which is much stronger than that offered by Fred. Add to that what did he gain from this grand exercise in deceit a stay of execution of a little over an hour? Now if there is evidence that he tried to drop off the rear of the packs well there might be a case to answer there. Any evidence of him skulking with the mules on Reno Hill?
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Post by quincannon on Sept 19, 2011 10:04:07 GMT -6
Fred: I am not trying to throw anything in anyones face. The truth is I do not know. That is why I presented the issue.
My position on this matter is simply in the absence of conclusive evidence to the contrary I assume the story to be true. If someone should produce sufficient evidence then I reserve the right to change my views.
If SGT Kanipe were guilty of those things you suspect him to be guilty of, then the only difference between SGT Kanipe and SGT Meyer, is that the former failed to control his fear and the latter did control it, and went on to do his duty, in fact went on to do it demonstrably above the call of that duty.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 19, 2011 10:05:18 GMT -6
Again: WHEN did Kanipe's story become so detailed? ANYthing that appears for the first time after the RCOI should be suspect and not held to be true automatically. His addition of the "overland" bit makes no sense whatever. He did, like others, embellish at the least.
Could be true, though. But I'm pretty sure Edgerly, Martin, and Kanipe at least embellished.
He wasn't directly sent by Custer, if he's telling the truth, but by TWC who assures him (odd, that) he'd just got the word from his brother. I have no trouble with that, actually, as I think and have said there was an official and an actual chain of command within the 7th, and that everyone understood and knew that TWC spoke for his bro. I think TWC brought the regiment forward that morning, which sent Custer into a fit wanting to know WHO had done it till TWC explained the reason......and the matter dropped with no further mention. Nobody ever said they'd brought it forward, and TWC had motive, opportunity, and the connection to do so.
TWC could and did, I think, know what bro would do and anticipate him correctly. Could be that Custer never knew Kanipe was sent as developments precluded contact between Custer and TWC and Martin was an unintended redundancy.
I think all this assumption of a glance back revealing specific dust clouds clearly revelatory is a little dubious. The Little Big Man movie was shot on the same ground and it's dusty as hell and suspends in the air a while. All the photos of the time, starting in 1877 show ground nubbed down and a lot of bare ground. The often lush field today (not 'green' lush, but lotta tall grass) is misleading, like the fence.
Also, having stood on Weir and looking back, I'm not so sure that even on a clear day (by definition proximity down wind of a huge wood burning village and 20k ponies is not a clear day) the packs (which were not one cohesive unit but included several to many), Benteen (in three units till near the end), or the gargantuan war party heading north (which didn't exist but who knew?) could be seen as well as sometimes assumed here. Maybe.
Now, who is the hitherto unknown Custer who was a stickler for military protocol? I think on a incident by incident basis you could argue that either way, depending on how it worked for him. He made fun of protocol in dress and other actions, like deserting his command once and, eh, training requirements.
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Post by fred on Sept 19, 2011 10:18:53 GMT -6
First of all, I do not see Custer "duping" any message. I think that is rationalization more than anything else, and doesn't even lend itself to any reasonable circumstantial evidence.
Second, I reject categorically even assumption by anyone that Benteen was at or near the LBH at this time or at any other time until the few moments prior to reaching Reno Hill.
Third, you all are also missing the piece of a sergeant being spotted by Rees as they were herding horses up the bluffs and onto the hillsides.
All of these events tie in quite nicely, as do the locations of where they occurred... that is, if you want to believe the majority of tales, which I do. Again, if you look at a topo map, you can see an area of the left, its right bank, a flats in that location, a gentle (compared to others) ravine up which it appears horse could be driven easily, the upper hillside, and then a ravine where the horses could be sequestered, exactly as the Rees described it all.
So, if you tie in the sighting of a soldier with stripes, you can come up with a very reasonable time-frame for that soldier's being there, especially when you tie it in with his own narrative of approximately where he was when he was supposedly sent back.
So while I am still trying to piece together various scenarios for the Boston Custer business, the Kanipe stuff remains pretty much etched in stone.
Another thing... you all seem to jump on top of these improderables as being "ponderable," i. e., the veracity of a message, Benteen being order hither and yon, sergeants versus orderlies, etc., yet no one seems to be interested in tackling the 3 MPH timing issue. What...? Did Kanipe stop for lunch? Or is it like some idiot on the other board who just decided to drop off because I accused him of being related to Kanipe?
The bottom line is, none of my "points" has been tackled properly with anything more than the usual. And when it comes to the "science" (God forgive me!) of it all, no one has an answer.
Like everything else, prove me wrong and I will change my opinion and figure out where it then fits.
As for all the old books and Walter Camp's research... so what? We have far better techniques today for gathering and collating data. Camp would have marveled over my little 8 1/2-year old Mac laptop and he could have set all this data side-by-side, like I did, making it infinitely easier to arrive at proper conclusions. The "dust-in-the-valley" is a perfect example. Some say none; some say a little; some say a lot. How are all these discrepancies rectified or justified? So, when you come down to it all, Walter Camp and W. A. Graham, Marquis, Kuhlman, and Dustin were all marvelous researchers, but their opinions matter no more than someone here who hasn't even posted.
So the question is, Did Kanipe malinger? I posted 10 reasons why I believe he did. Can I make a "smoking gun" proof? Nope! I will say this, however... I presented 10 calm, reasonable reasons; all I ever get in return is hysteria or borderline rationalization. When my opinions are published, they will be presented exactly as that: opinions. Those with an open mind can make their own judgments.
Best wishes, Fred.
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