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Post by wild on Sept 20, 2011 17:18:19 GMT -6
(2) Why would Custer send back two almost identical messages within minutes of one another when he hadn't even fired a shot?They ae not identical (3) Why would Custer use an NCO at this stage of the event when he was short NCOs, especially with a message of little or no import?The opposite is the case.The message was of the utmost import and Tom sent an expeienced NCO. (4) Why did Kanipe make no effort to return, or never tell anyone he was told to do so? Voss returned; Sharrow returned; and Martini admitted he was told to do so if he could.Probably given the same choice as Martin and like Martin choose to stay. (6) How come Kanipe never relayed his so-called message to either McDougall or the pack train CO, Mathey? We think we know he got back that far because one of the civilian teamsters saw him, exhorting them to move more quickly.How could he just join up with the packs wthout reporting to either officer. (7) Why would Kanipe be the chosen one? He wasn't an orderly that day and Custer had plenty of them to choose from: Nearest sergeant to Tom I Company men whose bodies were identified on LSH, leading us to believe Custer or Cooke had not released them back to their company after they delivered their message from Reno. They too had a choice and thought it safer with Custer? (9) Anybody ever do a "timing" analysis of Kanipe's Wild Ride? I have. His is easy. You know where and when he left; you know where and when he arrived: 2.6 miles; 3 MPH. Heady stuff there. Maybe he stopped for lunch. Lost my Grey time line but if you like to post your's Fred plus Martin's for comparison I'll check it out. Iv left one or two of the points out because they are too facile to bother with.The anwers to the others are uninspiring becase the points themselves hardly rise above "tittle tattle" for want of a better word. I'm surprised that a man who has contributed so much in the way of research to our understanding of the battle and who advocates fairness and understanding for the soldier in combat would let his standards slip in this particuar case. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Queries&action=display&thread=3377&page=1#ixzz1YXEAQxOX
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Post by fred on Sept 21, 2011 7:06:28 GMT -6
"Iv left one or two of the points out because they are too facile to bother with.The anwers to the others are uninspiring becase the points themselves hardly rise above "tittle tattle" for want of a better word.
"I'm surprised that a man who has contributed so much in the way of research to our understanding of the battle and who advocates fairness and understanding for the soldier in combat would let his standards slip in this particuar case."
You know, Wild, you haven't given a single valid rebuttal to anything I have posted. Not one. The personal jabs-- above-- hardly count because you simply haven't proved a thing or given any evidence to support your contentions. Simply saying something "is" or "is not," proves nothing but an opinion. And as far as being "facile," I hardly think that applies to me, but clearly-- by the supreme vacuousness of your replies-- tells everyone a lot about your knowledge and understanding of this whole thing.
You have slipped the slide on the Benteen thread because people who know-- and some, ironically, who don't!-- have told you how a military officer should act in combat and what and where his responsibilities lie... and I might add, career and professional soldiers. And now you are using the same dis-proven tactics on this thread.
As for my time-line on Kanipe, I suggest you find your "John Gray" and try to understand what he wrote. For my part, I have entered my own case and am hardly in awe of not receiving your imprimatur on my work. I do not consider your sign-off on any timing studies I have done something I can show to prove veracity or value.
As for the rest of your answers, they are off-topic, fatuous, irrelevant, or unsupported opinion... ergo, valueless and of no contribution whatsoever. Normally, I would tackle them one-by-one, but that would imply they have some value, and that simply isn't the case.
You are free certainly to respond to this, but you can be assured it will fall on deaf "ears," for I am done with this subject and no longer have a single shred of interest in pursuing it further; it has run its course for me. This has been the problem on innumerable "Kanipe" threads on this board and the other, and they always end the same way: school-yard answers to every quandary. Since this is typical and no one has been able to refute-- intelligently, anyway-- any of my now-12 points, my opinion is stronger than ever, so I suggest knitting as a replacement.
Best wishes, Fred.
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jag
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Post by jag on Sept 21, 2011 8:38:19 GMT -6
Now... the bogies: (1) Martini claimed to be the only messenger Custer sent back. This was in reference to the Goldin hogwash, but Martini never mentioned Kanipe, leading me to believe he never knew of Kanipe's Wild Ride. A. Martin didn't mention Kanipe because he was the first sent back, No need to wonder or worry here. And I think with this he likely didn't know of Kanipe's mission at the time since Kanipe was sent at a later time. Again nothing out of place as far as I'm concerned. (2) Why would Custer send back two almost identical messages within minutes of one another when he hadn't even fired a shot? A. Wild seems to think they are not identical. With this I could agree, they weren't, the helter skelter cross country request for the packs proves that . However they were essentially the same message but everyone seems to think they were sent to the same unit, they weren't. One message was sent to Benteen, further developement of Martin going on to the pack train would have to be Benteen's prerogative. Since that was the case, Custer, as was his usual forgetfulness and further sending more men with reminders or further orders told Tom to send someone back with those special instructions to the pack train. As for this quote "he hadn't even fired a shot" business, why should he wait until he does fire a shot? I guess he made this fatal error in your judgement because he should have waited until some shot had been fired. Custer is berated for not sending those messages earlier than he did, if not he should be, just as Benteen is berated by some for not being fast enough, well, it was either one way or another wasn't it? If Benteen was fast enough, then it goes without saying Custer waited to long to send those messages back. It seems to be, miraculously enough, a timing problem of when, where and why. Arrive at the wrong when and where and you'll never figure out why, which is where were all at to this day. And usually, if not always, the messages themselves tell more fact than the fiction we are forced to believe time and again. (3) Why would Custer use an NCO at this stage of the event when he was short NCOs, especially with a message of little or no import? A. I agree with Wild here, "The opposite is the case. The message (both of them) was of the utmost import and Tom sent an expeienced NCO." And I think degrading their missions to the status of quote "little or no import" shows an utter disregard and disrespect for what Custer wanted and/or needed to do. And how can we judge that if you throw out any of this evidence based upon your personal bias? HOw do you know he was quote "short of NCO's"? By your own words in #7 you indicate just the opposite, "He wasn't an orderly that day and Custer had plenty of them to choose from: there was still Martini-- who, despite the language problem, got a far more important message to deliver, albeit written; there were Mitchell and McIlhargey from Reno... I Company men whose bodies were identified on LSH, leading us to believe Custer or Cooke had not released them back to their company after they delivered their message from Reno. And there was trumpeter Dose from G Company who was also an orderly." Which is it, he was quote "short" or he had quote "plenty of them"? (4) Why did Kanipe make no effort to return, or never tell anyone he was told to do so? Voss returned; Sharrow returned; and Martini admitted he was told to do so if he could. A. I gotta agree with Wild here. Why should we expect every micro element to be there to analyse? If Kanipe was never asked, which the court felt it incumbent not to request his presence to ask, then why should he ever bring it up? If Martin couldn't make it back why should we expect someone, like Kanipe, who was sent later to return? A moot point. (5) Why did Kanipe tell no one who sent him back, until after he knew everyone was dead? Benteen tells us Voss told him that Custer wanted...; same with Sharrow; and we all know about Martini and the note. A. Who knew it would have been so important to do so? McDougall, Mathey? As they never followed the directive to cut the packs loose if they cause a problem and send them across country, why should we expect them to acknowledge it or confirm Kanipe's ride only after they knew everyone was dead? Why didn't they say something before? Easy one here, but then not one of them was willing to open that long stale box of crackers. (6) How come Kanipe never relayed his so-called message to either McDougall or the pack train CO, Mathey? We think we know he got back that far because one of the civilian teamsters saw him, exhorting them to move more quickly. See #5. Not all has to be kosher. Because you keep looking for something sweet, doesn't mean that pickle on your plate will be. Everything wasn't copacetic and on the up and up back then, as much as we'd like to believe everything told or inferred, doesn't mean that they told the truth. (7) Why would Kanipe be the chosen one? He wasn't an orderly that day and Custer had plenty of them to choose from: there was still Martini-- who, despite the language problem, got a far more important message to deliver, albeit written; there were Mitchell and McIlhargey from Reno... I Company men whose bodies were identified on LSH, leading us to believe Custer or Cooke had not released them back to their company after they delivered their message from Reno. And there was trumpeter Dose from G Company who was also an orderly. A. This one has been already diminished by your own question in #3. And before we even go there, we must establish with exacting clarity whether Custer had "plenty of them" or not. Then you have to deal with Wild's answer. (8) Custer was an absolute stickler for military protocol. Why would he deviate here by choosing a non-orderly? Reno did, why should we expect any less from either Custer or Benteen when nearly in close contact with the enemy, Terry refused to exhort any conditions that hampered Custer under uncertain conditions when military protocol doesn't always ideally work to your advantage. Of course we should expect Custer to do everything by the book, even when in near contact to the enemy, to do less diminishes his greatness. Or something. (9) Anybody ever do a "timing" analysis of Kanipe's Wild Ride? I have. His is easy. You know where and when he left; you know where and when he arrived: 2.6 miles; 3 MPH. Heady stuff there. Maybe he stopped for lunch. Yes. What it boils down to, once someone clears the fog from their head, is getting the time and the place down right. Gray's failure here is only magnified by his own feeble attempt at trying to identify by uncertain words where and when. I don't see much difference in your analysis than his, other than a yards measure, whats the diff? Gray failed, so anything even remotely close will fail also. (10) Notice he never said anything to anyone-- during the event-- about running into or even seeing, Boston Custer. Apparently neither did Martin until some decades later. What's so important about this? Or should we rehash this at Boston Custer thread investigating Martin's claim to include this as well?
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Post by wild on Sept 21, 2011 10:06:21 GMT -6
Fred 7 Of your points are questions begining with "why" How does one rebutt a question? Don't blame me if there is nothing in your points to be rebutted.
You have slipped the slide on the Benteen thread because people who know-- and some, ironically, who don't!-- have told you how a military officer should act in combat and what and where his responsibilities lie... and I might add, career and professional soldiers. And now you are using the same dis-proven tactics on this thread. Ah yes the military officer.That's the subtext here.Special cosiderations for officers, hang the rankers.
You are free certainly to respond to this, but you can be assured it will fall on deaf "ears," Don't go getting sulky on me Fred.Ya win some ya lose some.It's just a discussion.Take it on the chin.
Hi Jag
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Post by caleb1876 on Sept 28, 2011 13:24:19 GMT -6
Just published - an expose of the entire sordid Kanipe story, the truth of the Kanipe story is finally told. CUSTER'S FIRST MESSENGER!? Debunking the Story of Daniel A. Kanipe www.custer1876.com/gpage11.html
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Post by fred on Sept 28, 2011 13:36:08 GMT -6
So what's the bottom line? Anyone know? Anyone read this thing?
Unger is the author of the monstrous tome, The A-B-C's of Betrayal, or some such title. He is an extremist who finds conspiracies all over the place. Having said that, it does not mean his research is bad or faulty, just some of his conclusions. That, of course, is my opinion.
Of course, as well, if he agreed with me about Kanipe he would be my new best friend. For a while. Maybe. Well... I guess not.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Sept 30, 2011 8:03:07 GMT -6
A comparison between Kanipe's travel time and that of Martin's using Grey's timeline shows Kanipe taking 27 minutes and Martin taking 24 minutes. Nothing there to throw suspicion on Kanipe.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2011 11:32:06 GMT -6
Seems to me we are going down the same road here that others have followed concerning Reno's conduct. In the absence of conclusive evidence to the contrary we must assume that Kanipe was just what he said he was. There is no smoking gun here, nor is there likely to be. Therefore it is just another one of those exercises in fruitless speculation. Perhaps there will be a time this changes, but for now I see no point in this.
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Post by bc on Sept 30, 2011 15:02:43 GMT -6
Seems to me we are going down the same road here that others have followed concerning Reno's conduct. In the absence of conclusive evidence to the contrary we must assume that Kanipe was just what he said he was. There is no smoking gun here, nor is there likely to be. Therefore it is just another one of those exercises in fruitless speculation. Perhaps there will be a time this changes, but for now I see no point in this. I'm with Chuck here. Benteen accepted him as a messenger so I don't see a problem. There is nothing about Kanipe being a messenger or a deserter that changes what I kinda think happened up north. Art Unger apparently has a new book out on Kanipe as a malingerer and it has copies of his 25 letters to Camp. Might be an interesting read. Apparently he started his analysis with the intent to debunk Kanipe from the get-go for what that is worth. bc
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Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2011 18:53:24 GMT -6
You can probably find someone who says - I think Mother Teresa was a blackjack dealer in Vegas. When you set out to question the character of an historical figure you better start with something more than - I think.
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Post by El Crab on Sept 30, 2011 19:48:57 GMT -6
Seems to me we are going down the same road here that others have followed concerning Reno's conduct. In the absence of conclusive evidence to the contrary we must assume that Kanipe was just what he said he was. There is no smoking gun here, nor is there likely to be. Therefore it is just another one of those exercises in fruitless speculation. Perhaps there will be a time this changes, but for now I see no point in this. Personally I don't see the logic in Kanipe leaving his company for any reason other than being ordered to. Those that straggled and thus missed out on dying with their companies had horse issues, right? Or at least they claimed to? Kanipe would've had to have been a psychic to know Custer's entire command would be wiped out. Because claiming he was sent as a messenger by Tom Custer is asking for trouble when the battle ends and Kanipe is expected to return to his company. Not to mention the lack of safety. You're 40 days out of Fort Lincoln. You're in the wilderness, a short distance from quite a few Indians. Where does safety exist? By yourself, in the middle of nowhere, or with your company, which is with 4 other companies and commanded by Custer? Dropping out of the column and going back along the trail gets you where? With Benteen and 115 men? With the packtrain and 150 men? Or do you stay with your company, in the 225-strong battalions under the command of George Armstrong Custer? Where would safety be found so near an Indian village? And who amongst the Seventh thought they were going to lose a fight? Kanipe being a deserter versus a messenger just doesn't make logical sense to me. Of course, it doesn't have to. Things happen, people aren't 100% predictable. But what is the likeliest explanation?
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Post by quincannon on Sept 30, 2011 22:22:58 GMT -6
I mentioned this a few days ago somewhere. I believe that the biggest piece of evidence, at least in my evaluation of this thing, is the fact that Mrs Bobo married Sergeant Kanipe. Now I don't know about others of you who served in the military, but I can tell you from my experience that the wives and girlfriends have a network of their own. They always know what is going on in a line unit. They know where the bodies are buried. They know who is visiting whom who should not be and all the rest. That said, had there have been any hint of character issues regarding Kanipe in an action where her first husband was killed, I do not think Kanipe would have been her second husband. Now is this anything other than a gut feeling - no it is not, but the army is a closed society and there would, I am sure, have been rumbles if anything was thought to be untoward.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 30, 2011 22:26:22 GMT -6
El Crab. I agree. Have said the same thing over and over. As far as I know, there is only one or two people who think he skipped out so it is not that big a deal.
Rosebud
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Post by El Crab on Oct 1, 2011 0:29:54 GMT -6
The other side of it is that his mission makes sense. He was sent to the packtrain, with the stipulation "...and if you see Benteen...". Whereas Martini was sent directly to Benteen.
And given that Reno sent two different messengers to Custer with roughly the same message, it doesn't seem at all weird for Custer to send similar messages to the other two battalions.
I think its a telling clue as well. Custer could've sent Kanipe to Benteen, then to the packtrain. But Benteen would've taken some effort to find, given that Custer could not have known exactly where he was. But he only sent him to McDougall, with the stipulation that he should speak to Benteen if he sees him as well. At that time, Custer wasn't too concerned with having every available trooper. By the time he sent Martini, something changed. What Custer might've thought after sending Kanipe:
*He wanted every trooper not already in action to be brought up.
*He wanted the packs.
*He knew where Benteen was, and that his battalion was near enough to the packtrain to assist in its advance.
How else can we explain sending one messenger on the back trail to the packtrain, with the possibility of also delivering a message to Benteen, then another directly to Benteen with instructions pertaining to the packtrain? To me, that says Custer didn't know where Benteen was when he sent Kanipe, and he knew where Benteen was when he sent Martini.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 1, 2011 0:35:10 GMT -6
"I can tell you from my experience that the wives and girlfriends have a network of their own. They always know what is going on in a line unit. They know where the bodies are buried. They know who is visiting whom who should not be and all the rest."
Two Words: "Mrs. Nash."
They may have known all but it hasn't come down to us. Perhaps Bobo wasn't all that beloved.
Crab makes sense. But, having zippo experience myself, I'd like to suggest that consistent motivations might not be realistic under stress and too much time trying to construct one and attribute it as an explanation one way or the other might not be of value. I still think it likely that TWC sent Kanipe correctly anticipating Big Bro and things occurred that prevented Custer from knowing this before he sent Martin not long after. Something like Boston arriving or scouts reporting or firing at them.
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