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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 19, 2011 17:49:47 GMT -6
You're right in that it isn't a big deal of itself.
But it's a big story because it's easy to write, fits the template of heroic sacrifice, battling his way through Indians to die with his brother, etc. etc. That's when it first appeared decades later.
MUCH later, Boston is used to time out Benteen's arrival at Reno Creek by Edgerly, and later to time out where people were by meeting Martin. It's always said in a way as if it were icing on the cake, not necessary to this or that scenario, but added bonus.
Yet, when it vanishes, an awful lot of the time lines loosen up. For example, Martin could have taken far longer than estimated because of his wounded horse,
I think it really important that stories not mentioned by the time of the RCOI are given suspicious gaze, and think how easily that story was accepted as true DESPITE testimony to the contrary. It felt right, is all. Spoke well of the Custers, who'd been piled on enough.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 19, 2011 18:19:30 GMT -6
I think it really important that stories not mentioned by the time of the RCOI DC
OK, I think I understand you better. I was under the impression that you always thought if it wasn't in the RCOI you didn't use it. My bad.
I think you are saying that they had 2 years to tell their story before the RCOI. Anything after the RCOI was probably for self promotion. I tend to agree with this.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 19, 2011 18:38:02 GMT -6
They've had time, and it simply isn't plausible that in an era when spoken stories had HUGE entertainment value, especially if true and especially told by a participant, and especially among those without new Ipods or any sort of entertainment, that this meeting with Boston was forgotten. That's a story from central screenplay that soldiers would love: quiet, devoted service with no thought of himself. But nobody gives any indication they'd heard it, and if they had Lee'd certainly get it into the record and Whitaker would have written about it.
What I started out saying is just pick a reasonable amount of time after the battle to accept new material, and that I had chosen the closing of the RCOI. Also, from that point on, with no official rendition made public, people would forget what they'd testified to and stories could be offered with nothing to check against. So, just to avoid pointless dispute over something nobody thought would become a 'thing', they started agreeing with each other over time. Hey, Martini did take the message and he was there. Big deal if he gets more tips at the theater for a while with his imagination, and it's a good story, and why not?
No doubt some truth is lost by this method, but you eliminate most of the nonsense and the story is recognizable and plausible with a Custer and 7th that doesn't surprise with hitherto unknown characteristics.
It is true that I take the RCOI testimony above other sources. For those who visualize a supposed conspiracy you'd think their stories would coincide more, but they're all over the place in time and sequence which, if my readings are correct, are indicative of truth and trauma. From time of day to size of camp to who did what, they cannot agree on anything in detail. That's about right.
And, I still think about every combat vet can recall bad days he lucked out as well as the good and would be less hysterical in blaming Reno or Benteen.
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Post by lew on Sept 19, 2011 21:54:50 GMT -6
Fred, This is what bothers me about Kanipe's story--he states "I was riding close to Sergeant Finkle. We were both close to Capt. Tom Custer. Finkle hollered at me that he couldn't make it, his horse was giving out. I answered back: "Come on Finkle, if you can." He dropped back a bit. Just then the captain told me to go back and find McDougall and the pack train and deliver to them orders that had just been issued by General Custer." Now if the orders had just been issued,that would mean Tom was within talking distance of his brother. As Kanipe was riding close to Tom-why didn't he mention hearing George Custer giving the order? Should he not have heard some of the exchange between Tom and George? If not how old was this order? How long had they ridden before Tom remembers to send a messenger back.? just sounds strange.
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Post by wild on Sept 20, 2011 1:29:13 GMT -6
As Kanipe was riding close to Tom Define close on a horse .And the HQ group was probably close but out of earshot.And was Kanipe tuned into the HQ channel listening to all chit chat? I'd hate to be up before a hanging judge with some of you guys on the jury.
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Post by wild on Sept 20, 2011 1:41:40 GMT -6
DC It is true that I take the RCOI testimony above other sources RCOI testimony was selective and limited to answers provided to questions by a limited number of witnesses.The RCOI was a filter system.Because a story did not pass through this filter made it no less credible
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 6:39:11 GMT -6
You believe Kanipe, yet you question Edgerly regarding Boston Custer FredAw, Fred, You know thats not true. The ONLY reason I give the Boston story any credit at all is because of Edgerly. Ich auch! Me too. Despite everything-- so far-- I have to stick to my guns. Still willing to change, but still not convinced. I agree completely. I still do, though I need to read fully some more of the narratives of some of the EM who were there. I ordered a book from Upton that I wasn't aware of before and that "keogh" has mentioned, so we'll see where that leads to. "Keogh" has this annoying tendency to yank things out of context. The problem I have with all that is the same as DC's usual complaint: time lag; 20, 30, 40 years, does a lot to the memory. Wa-a-ay too far outside! I agree. That is why I continue to say that the "Boston" time-line is speculative, at best. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 6:56:26 GMT -6
I was under the assumption that there were probably many more that talk about Boston going to the front. I never looked because he is just not that big a story. What I didn't realize was Edgerly and Martini are the ONLY ones that even mention Boston. I do find that a little suspicious. Actually, there is. At least three EM mention Boston, but all confusing, and when you look at what they said, add in Edgerly, and the whole thing becomes asinine. They wouldn't; the water hasn't even gotten warm in this teapot, much less risen to the temperature of a tempest. Yep! This is the bogey question and the major reason why I believe Boston started out with George, then went back to change horses. It is the "where" that matters. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 7:42:14 GMT -6
Who in god's name remembers precise details of such trifling domestic minutiae? Those who were there, that's who! Oh-h yes it does! It proves plenty. Your argument here is typical of those who deny what participants had to say because it contradicts your own thoughts and theories. It is not as though you are tossing out contradictory narrative; you are making a conscious effort to accept Kanipe's story at the expense of Martini's. A specious argument at best. I have never said that! Never! Where do you see "Reno" in that message? Yes, the regimental sergeant major, the only other time. And he was used within the first 10 minutes or so of the move from the divide and was told to return... and did so. Why do you see a similarity in that situation with Kanipe? I don't... and there is none. Another specious answer. And we are to believe Kanipe was not told to return, when everyone-- before and after, regardless of rank-- was told to do so? Your suspicions seem to be raised with every other tale about this event; why not here? Because a name carries weight. If Kanipe said Henry Harrington-- or Peter Thompson, for that matter!-- sent him back, what do you think Benteen's or McDougall's reaction would been? How come both Voss and Sharrow told Benteen-- without the written evidence of a note-- that Custer sent them; how come Cooke signed the Martini note? Huh? Are we agreeing here, or have I missed something? Another specious argument. Who? Sharrow, as the regimental sergeant major had no troops to command, was essentially-- at this moment in time-- a "paper-pusher," and as the SGM, a valuable tool in "force of order" to ensure no desires were excluded or missed. Besides, he was the only NCO sent back of the five messengers were are sure of. Where, exactly, is the import of Kanipe's so-called message? No... a typical example of yanking something out of context. What I said-- or implied-- was that Kanipe's message was identical to a portion of Martini's message. Your argument here is meant to deflect your lack of substance. Let's not use semantics to prove a prove; they don't. I have; whatever you mean by that is irrelevant; see my original point: # 8. Oh, please! Call it what you will: loiter, hide, cool it, worry, fret.... No-man's land? Says who? Show me one instance, name one single name of any warrior in this vicinity. Just one! The only Indians anywhere near that vicinity-- the vicinity where 200-and-some-odd troops just blew through-- were a bunch of Rees herding swiped ponies. And these Rees were fired on by troops straggling behind the galloping command. There was about as much danger lurking in that area at that time as there is at a child's show on TV. I would venture to say that the "highway" leading from Reno Creek to 3,411 was the safest spot in the whole area at that time. Another silly argument, pertaining to areas other than where Kanipe was. There was no mystery about Custer's movements. Everyone knew where he went; his trail was marked by the blood of his men, and if there was ever an instance of "we-didn't-really-notice," it would have been Custer's trail once past where Varum last spotted the Gray Horse Troop. The only trail confusion was at the Custer/Reno separation point in the flats, and only because two shod trails separated. I find it incredible that anyone might think an NCO/frontiersman of Kanipe's caliber, living on the Plains in 1876, would have had trouble going back to Reno Creek from where he claimed he was given the message. That's the biggest crock of malarkey I have ever heard! I also notice you haven't seen fit to take on the original point of Kanipe's speed.... It seems no one wants to deal with that little issue, yet they just love to stick by their instant belief of Kanipe's story. It proves nothing... nothing at all. A lot of people, however, jump on the smallest omission in attempts to prove their points. Just look at the "Boston" thread for that. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 7:59:10 GMT -6
I think you are saying that they had 2 years to tell their story before the RCOI. Anything after the RCOI was probably for self promotion. I tend to agree with this. I agree, and in fact, DC was the first person I know who insisted upon drumming this into our heads. Most of my time-line work is driven by this very concept and despite the obvious attempts at the RCOI to cover for Reno and the regiment-- none of which changed anything germane or of substance regarding the battle-- the specific data we get are the most accurate we'll find, trumping something someone said 20 years later. Even if a Camp interview is the first time a participant went on record with something, it has to be viewed as a 30-year-old memory and used with that in mind. I see it with my own memories of Vietnam and how they conflict with those of a soldier who fought with me, side-by-side. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 8:09:08 GMT -6
And, I still think about every combat vet can recall bad days he lucked out as well as the good and would be less hysterical in blaming Reno or Benteen. Yep! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 8:15:14 GMT -6
Now if the orders had just been issued,that would mean Tom was within talking distance of his brother. As Kanipe was riding close to Tom-why didn't he mention hearing George Custer giving the order? Should he not have heard some of the exchange between Tom and George? If not how old was this order? How long had they ridden before Tom remembers to send a messenger back.? just sounds strange. Larry, I agree with you and after reading what toy posted, it made me think of another point... # 12. (12) If TWC was riding with his brother-- which most people believe-- then why did he usurp Harrington by going to Kanipe directly? It would make a lot more sense to me for Tom to shout back to Harrington to send a messenger. How would it be if Harrington didn't know Kanipe was ordered back and went looking for the sergeant to do something. So one might think that Tom, echoing his brother, would be just as cautious about protocol and would use the "chain-of-command" properly. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 8:21:16 GMT -6
The RCOI was a filter system. Yes. It filtered out the speculative. Time does. I look back fondly on my quadruple by-pass. I survived; I gutted it out with a minimum of pain-killers; and I have the scars to prove it. I can assure you, that attitude wasn't present nine years ago!! I suspect this op will be much the same if I am lucky enough to be alive a year from now. I also seem to remember having some bad times in Vietnam. God, they were wonderful days! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Sept 20, 2011 16:07:30 GMT -6
Fred I have never said that! Never! Where do you see "Reno" in that message? My unreserved apologies Fred. I'm guilty of applying guilt by association. On the Did Benteen fail Chusterthread I had been ploughing a lonely furrow.The Benteen camp[which was everybody took the view that Benteen was correct in delivering himself and the packs to Reno. You posted one or two items which seemed [to me anyway]that you were very much in the Benteen camp. You then posted a line or two praising DCs defence of Benteen. The best thing you had ever read from a man who never wore uniform.Now DC is Benteen's arch defender. So you can see where I made the mistake. My apologies again.
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Post by fred on Sept 20, 2011 17:13:03 GMT -6
Richard,
We are friends. You needn't apologize to me, not over this stuff. Despite your disagreements, there are not a lot of people better than you and Dark Cloud. It all focuses on understanding and what people stand for.
Best wishes, Fred.
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