Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on May 7, 2012 22:44:18 GMT -6
There is nothing suspicious about it.
First off, the only reason we know that all four troopers fell out is because Thompson wrote about it in his narrative. No one else said or wrote such a thing. What makes a person believe Watson? Slaper said that Watson told him that his horse gave out. So that makes Watson legit. Thompson wrote that Brennan and Fitzgerald turned their horses to the rear, with no indication of when Fitzgerald did. But Brennan did not turn to the rear until both Watson and Thompson’s horses quit. Then Brennan turned back. It appears as Watson’s horse gave out first for when Thompson’s horse quit, he looked back and saw Watson. This is when Brennan turned. Where Fitzgerald was at this time is not known.
This “coincidence” of all four is a study in what makes a soldier turn to the rear. Where Fitzgerald turned back, don’t know, but Thompson said he did and he survived. Watson’s horse goes down to the ground and Thompson’s quite moving. Brennan now is the last of the four and turns back. Now to question Thompson’s credibility because he wrote about it and is the only reason that we are even talking about it is ludicrous. There is nothing suspicious about this coincidence. Once again this is Thompson’s narrative that tells this series of events and someone says it sullies Thompson's credibility??? He is the one that told us.
Thompson in his narrative does not say anything about Sgt Finkle on the end of his company, it does not exist, no where.
What he does say is when he looks back and sees Watson kicking his horse to get up, Thompson also sees Sgt Finkle “sitting calmly on his horse looking on and making no effort to help Watson”. Then Finkle passed to rejoin the company, leaving Watson and Thompson.
This all occurred after leaving Reno (Ash) Creek. The companies saw the village and urged their horses into a gallop. Sgt Knipe and Sgt Finkle’s event occurs at the same time the two troopers horses come to a stop. Knipe rides on to become a messanger, Brennan leaves south and Finkle rides on and Thompson and Watson move on to the north.
Arikara scout Soldier was left behind the other scouts. Soldier was joined by Stabbed, White Eagle and Bull. Reaching the ridge of the river the four turned north following Custer‘s path, the same route Thompson and Watson followed. Soldier said, “Here they found a white soldier trying to get his horse up, he was cursing and swearing, pounding his horse's head with his fists and kicking him under the belly. Here the grass was much trodden down and the trails were very plain. Soon a little farther up the ridge, they found another white soldier with his horse down. This soldier indicated by signs that he belonged to Custer's command. From the ridge they saw the whole Dakota camp “
Thompson said when the companies broke into a gallop and their horses quite he was in sight of the Indian village, and it was a truly imposing sight, about 3 miles down the valley. When Soldier saw the two soldiers with horse trouble they saw the whole Dakota camp. Statements of the same time, and same location and the same events.
suspicious coincidence ? Study, study, study.
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Post by ulan on May 8, 2012 2:25:58 GMT -6
There is nothing suspicious about it. Thompson in his narrative does not say anything about Sgt Finkle on the end of his company, it does not exist, no where. What he does say is when he looks back and sees Watson kicking his horse to get up, Thompson also sees Sgt Finkle “sitting calmly on his horse looking on and making no effort to help Watson”. Then Finkle passed to rejoin the company, leaving Watson and Thompson. suspicious coincidence ? Study, study, study. Thompson said he looked back and sees Watson and Finckle. Brennan came near Thompson and also in front of Watson and Finckle. From this scenario we can understand that Watson with his horse was obvisionly the first who fell out of the column. As Finckle was waiting for him and watched if Watson´s horse was indeed exhausted, it is just a bit of logic here that Finckle was the NCO on the end of the C column on that day. At least he was on the end and away from the column. Or let me ask the other way round, if an NCO was allways on the end of the company column and it was not Finckle, who else was it and why he didn´t fell back together with the troopers to watch whats going on? Thompson further states:"But finally the poor animal gained his feet with a groan, and Finkle passed on with a rush to overtake our company". The poor animal was Watson horse but Finckle was able to rush with his horse back to the galloping company column. Kanipe said he was together with Finckle directly behind Tom Custer in the lead of Company C. Finckle then fell a bit back because of his exhausted horse and thats why Kanipe gets the message for the pack train. That seems happend shortly after Watson and Thompson allready felled back because their horses couldn´t do the gallop. I try to study this but i am stuck with a possible contradict between the position of Finckle in the column and the shape of his horse. If Finckle fell back because his horse was exhausted, why he controled Watson on the end of the column and than was able to rush back to the company?
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 8, 2012 6:55:48 GMT -6
First off, the only reason we know that all four troopers fell out is because Thompson wrote about it in his narrative.
Well they weren't assigned to the pack train and they didn't die with Custer. So unless they were AWOL then it is fair to state they fell out at minimum. Thompson was observed on the bluffs alone and so was his horse.
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Post by 76rangerxlt on Jan 16, 2013 4:33:08 GMT -6
Hi, new to the forum obviously. I stumbled upon it trying to find some evidence concerning what an old man, Robert B Lee, told me many years ago. He told me that as a child, he had a friend whose grandfather (or some relation, my memory has faded after 30 some years) was a survivor of the Battle of the little Big Horn; that he was sent back by Custer with a message. I kind of dismissed the story though it has stayed with me. The old man's childhood friend was named, if I recall correctly, Gene Bobo. Now this was in the late 70s-early 80s and Mr Lee was born in 1909 in Clyde NC and lived in various places in western NC. I stumbled unto the Kanipe-Bobo connection thanks to the internet, which brought me here. Mr. Lee told me he was deathly afraid of the old man and was at the house playing with his friend when they were called to supper. Mr Lee stayed in the boys room, not wanting to face the old man at the dinner table. The old man asked the boy "where is your friend?", the boy replied "hes not hungry". Mr Lee said he heard the old man say "well if he would stick his damn feet under the table it would be a good way to keep from getting hungry!" and at that, Mr. Lee said he crawled out of the window and ran home. I wonder if its possible the old man Mr Lee spoke of was Daniel Kanipe? And if the Gene Bobo he mentioned was a decendant of Edwin Bobo? Pre internet, the closest I ever got to researching this was reading "Son of the morning star" and finding Edwin Bobo's name in the roll of the 7th and thinking to myself maybe Mr Lee wasnt making that all up.
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Post by fred on Jan 16, 2013 7:58:39 GMT -6
I wonder if its possible the old man Mr Lee spoke of was Daniel Kanipe? And if the Gene Bobo he mentioned was a decendant of Edwin Bobo? ... and finding Edwin Bobo's name in the roll of the 7th and thinking to myself maybe Mr Lee wasnt making that all up. 76Ranger, This thing has more charlatans than Custer had troops at the battle. Keep that in mind. Your story, however, rings true... actually, very true, especially considering its North Carolina roots. Here is some information I have put together on Edwin Bobo and Daniel Kanipe: Bobo, 1SG L. Edwin—b. Franklin County, OH, 1845 – d. 25 Jun 1876, killed at the Little Big Horn. Company C: first sergeant. Hazel eyes, brown hair, 5’ 6½” tall. Had first enlisted on 23 Dec 1867 and was assigned to the Seventh Cavalry. Participated in the Washita campaign of ’68. Body found near Keogh. Had cholera in Aug 1875, but survived. Married Missouri Ann Wycoff on 2 Oct 1872. She eventually re-married to SGT Daniel Kanipe. Bobo and his wife had two children: Charles F. (b. 16 Aug 1873, Fort Rice - d. 1937 in Knoxville, TN); and Frank E. (b. 10 Jun 1875 in D. T.). Bobo’s body was identified in the Keogh Sector meaning he had survived the carnage of the Calhoun Coulee and Finley/Finckle Ridge fighting. His descendants survive him, at least one currently living in North Carolina. Listed number 13 in “June Returns, Alterations… Killed in action.” Kanipe (also seen spelled, Knipe), SGT Daniel Alexander—b. Marion, SC, 15 Apr 1853 – d. Marion, SC, 18 Jul 1926. Company C, sergeant. Hazel eyes, light hair, 5’ 11” tall. Enlisted 7 Aug 1872 at Lincolnton. Discharged 7 Aug 1877, then re-upped the same day. Discharged again, 6 Aug 1882. Participated in the Yellowstone Expedition of 1873 and the Black Hills Expedition of 1874. Married Bobo’s widow a year after LBH. Civilian occupation was a farmer. Interviewed by Walter Camp and explained his name was spelled “Kanipe,” but enlistment records show he enlisted as “Knipe.” Supposedly sent back with message as the Custer battalions were mounting the bluffs overlooking the beginning of the valley fight, though there is some doubt to this and Kanipe may have been shirking. He wound up with pack train. For a soldier who did not distinguish himself particularly at the LBH, Daniel Kanipe was the subject of more LBH adventures than practically any other man. In addition to his claim that he was sent back by Tom Custer to hurry the packs along, Kanipe also claimed to have spotted some 75 – 100 Indians on top of the river bluffs and that was the reason George Custer swung his five-company command off to the right instead of following Reno down the valley. Kanipe was also the man who claimed SGT Bustard (I) was the soldier found in the village—which was incorrect—and the author of the story about SGT Finckle’s horse giving out. In addition, Kanipe claimed it was SGT Finley who took and kept the scalp found at the Rosebud sundance site. And then, of course, there is the Nathan Short story… but one will have to see “Short, PVT Nathan” for that. One thing about Daniel Kanipe: he knew how to draw press coverage. If you need more information or want to discuss it privately, e-mail me. If my address doesn't show up in the profile, let me know, here. Otherwise we can just discuss the whole thing here as well. I have some strong opinions about Daniel Kanipe, however, and sometimes others love to interject their opinions, however unfounded and unproven. Message boards can get out of hand at times. Regardless, the Kanipe saga is intriguing and a marvelous subject for discussion. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by 76rangerxlt on Jan 16, 2013 13:54:53 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply. As I said, I remember basically dismissing this story as a young teenager as the rambling of an old timer because I "knew" there were no survivors at the Little Big Horn. When I read Son of the Morning Star in the mid '80s and saw the Bobo name my interest was again piqued but quickly deflated as I saw Bobo had been killed in action, the best I figured was that Mr Lee knew some relation to Bobo and the "survivor" he spoke of surely wasnt at the battle. But after only a few hours on the internet and reading this entire thread and the Kanipe connection to western NC, I now feel fairly certain Kanipe must be the man Mr Lee spoke of.
He and his wife lived down the street from me when I was a child and we both had bulldogs; mine would hop my fence, run down to his house, hop that fence and the two dogs would play, thats how I got to know him. He had served a stint in the Navy in the late '20s or early '30s, then enlisted after Pearl Harbor as a 32 or 33 year old and saw much combat in the Pacific. I would sit with him on the porch and listen to his storys for hours about his youth and his combat experience. The Bobo/LBH story was just one he mentioned several times in passing, it wasnt something he made a big deal about.
Anyways, I am glad I found the forum; history is my favorite subject and I hope to hang around and learn something.
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Post by benteen on Jan 16, 2013 15:02:03 GMT -6
Capt Fred/76ranger,
I agree Sgt Kanipe is an interesting individual.
From another account of the battle by Sgt Kanipe from the Historical Society of Montana, published in the Greensboro Daily Record, April 27, 1924, the following from Sgt Kanipe.
"Reaching the pack train, I gave Capt McDougall the orders sent him, and went on toward Capt Benteen as I had been told to tell him also".... Wait a minute, how does he hit the pack train before Benteen. Wasnt Benteen in front of the pack train. We know 10 minutes later Martini coming from the same direction came to Benteen first. Regardless, when he told Benteen, Benteen told him the message was for McDougall, go see him. If he had already seen McDougall why wouldnt he tell Benteen.
He states in the same article that he and Benteen joined Reno and McDougall on Reno hill, which would mean the pack trains arrived before Benteen, we know thats not true
Both Mathey and McDougall deny in the RCOI that they were given any message by a Sgt or anyone else.
Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Jan 16, 2013 15:33:29 GMT -6
... I "knew" there were no survivors at the Little Big Horn. Ranger, I do not know how much you know about this battle today, but Custer went into the thing with his full complement of companies-- twelve in a cavalry regiment of 1876. While not at full strength, he still had 607 officers and men, plus a contingent of scouts, interpreters, and some civilians, all told, 655 men. He split his regiment into several parts and when they say Custer and all his men were killed, they refer to only one part consisting of 210 men. These included two brothers, a nephew, and a brother-in-law. It also included a half-breed scout and a civilian newspaper reporter. More men were killed in other parts of the battlefield-- 58 to be exact, including one man who died from his wounds several months later. More than 50 were wounded... I think 52 is the generally agreed upon number. Your story is fascinating and from what you have posted, absolutely believable. If I am not mistaken, there remain members of the Bobo family in NC. It would be interesting if you were to contact them, especially considering your interest in history. With two sons, the lineage should be easy to follow. And welcome here. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Jan 16, 2013 15:51:23 GMT -6
76ranger,
My apology for not adding this to my post. Welcome aboard. Look forward to exchanging. ideas with you on this engagement, or as you can see we have other threads dealing with all sorts of military history which are equaly enjoyable. Enjoy them all and ask any questions you like as there are people in the forum that are in my opinion experts.
Be Well Dan
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Post by 76rangerxlt on Jan 19, 2013 2:41:02 GMT -6
Thanks to findagrave and Jack Bobo for maintaining his genealogy on the site, it didnt take me long to track down what I think is the connection between my old friend and Daniel Kanipe and the LBH, such as it is. Fred, I'm sure you know this but for those who don't and may care too; Edwin Bobo and Missouri Ann Bobo nee Wycoff, www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=52422785 had 2 children before Bobo was killed at the LBH, a Charles F and a Frank Eugene Bobo www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=36395486. As you know, Missouri Ann would later wed Daniel Kanipe and have several more children. Frank Eugene Bobo would marry and have among other children, a boy named Eugene Henry Bobo, b1908-d1962, www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=74168864. I feel quite certain this has to be the Gene Bobo Mr Lee knew as a child and through whom he encountered the gruff old man who survived the LBH, D. Kanipe. Henry Eugene Bobo being born in 1908 in McDowell County NC would place him right in line with my Mr. Lee, born 1909 in Clyde NC. I kept running into deadends as I could not find any descendants of the Bobo-Wycoff children; Frank and Charles and much before that, it was a deadend for me because to the best of my memory, Mr. Lee never mentioned (probably never knew and if had, probably long forgotten) that the grandfather, was named Kanipe, not Bobo and knowing nothing of the Kanipe-Bobo widow union, the trail disappeared at the LBH for me as Bobo had died there. Mr Lee died in 2001 at 92 years of age, probably one of the toughest individuals I will ever meet, I am tickled at finally getting a peek at the ogre who terrified him as a child: www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1201879. This picture taken about the time Mr Lee was born, add another 8-10 years I'm guessing and I can see why a 8-10 year old would be intimidated. I realize this is barely even a foot note to history and the LBH chapter but it somehow brings it a little closer for me; the fact that I knew a man that had known a participant makes it all the more interesting and breathes life into it. I have placed a call to Mr Lee's daughter in Greensboro Ga and have sent an email to Mr Jack Bobo, the gentleman who maintains his family's history (at least partially) on the findagrave website to get further corroboration of the times and places these two would have known each other but my mind is satisfied that this fellow is the Gene Bobo my old friend knew and he did in fact bump into a survivor of the 7th as a child. The internet can be amazing tool; I would most likely have never been able to find all this out but for it and would have continued in the belief that Mr Lee's story was just another chimera concerning the LBH.
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Post by justvisiting on Jan 19, 2013 9:46:09 GMT -6
Thanks to findagrave and Jack Bobo for maintaining his genealogy on the site, it didnt take me long to track down what I think is the connection between my old friend and Daniel Kanipe and the LBH, such as it is. Fred, I'm sure you know this but for those who don't and may care too; Edwin Bobo and Missouri Ann Bobo nee Wycoff, www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=52422785 had 2 children before Bobo was killed at the LBH, a Charles F and a Frank Eugene Bobo www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=36395486. As you know, Missouri Ann would later wed Daniel Kanipe and have several more children. Frank Eugene Bobo would marry and have among other children, a boy named Eugene Henry Bobo, b1908-d1962, www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=74168864. I feel quite certain this has to be the Gene Bobo Mr Lee knew as a child and through whom he encountered the gruff old man who survived the LBH, D. Kanipe. Henry Eugene Bobo being born in 1908 in McDowell County NC would place him right in line with my Mr. Lee, born 1909 in Clyde NC. I kept running into deadends as I could not find any descendants of the Bobo-Wycoff children; Frank and Charles and much before that, it was a deadend for me because to the best of my memory, Mr. Lee never mentioned (probably never knew and if had, probably long forgotten) that the grandfather, was named Kanipe, not Bobo and knowing nothing of the Kanipe-Bobo widow union, the trail disappeared at the LBH for me as Bobo had died there. Mr Lee died in 2001 at 92 years of age, probably one of the toughest individuals I will ever meet, I am tickled at finally getting a peek at the ogre who terrified him as a child: www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1201879. This picture taken about the time Mr Lee was born, add another 8-10 years I'm guessing and I can see why a 8-10 year old would be intimidated. I realize this is barely even a foot note to history and the LBH chapter but it somehow brings it a little closer for me; the fact that I knew a man that had known a participant makes it all the more interesting and breathes life into it. I have placed a call to Mr Lee's daughter in Greensboro Ga and have sent an email to Mr Jack Bobo, the gentleman who maintains his family's history (at least partially) on the findagrave website to get further corroboration of the times and places these two would have known each other but my mind is satisfied that this fellow is the Gene Bobo my old friend knew and he did in fact bump into a survivor of the 7th as a child. The internet can be amazing tool; I would most likely have never been able to find all this out but for it and would have continued in the belief that Mr Lee's story was just another chimera concerning the LBH. Cool. Thanks for sharing. Billy
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Post by herosrest on Jan 19, 2013 19:56:00 GMT -6
There is nothing suspicious about it. Thompson in his narrative does not say anything about Sgt Finkle on the end of his company, it does not exist, no where. What he does say is when he looks back and sees Watson kicking his horse to get up, Thompson also sees Sgt Finkle “sitting calmly on his horse looking on and making no effort to help Watson”. Then Finkle passed to rejoin the company, leaving Watson and Thompson. suspicious coincidence ? Study, study, study. Thompson said he looked back and sees Watson and Finckle. Brennan came near Thompson and also in front of Watson and Finckle. From this scenario we can understand that Watson with his horse was obvisionly the first who fell out of the column. As Finckle was waiting for him and watched if Watson´s horse was indeed exhausted, it is just a bit of logic here that Finckle was the NCO on the end of the C column on that day. At least he was on the end and away from the column. Or let me ask the other way round, if an NCO was allways on the end of the company column and it was not Finckle, who else was it and why he didn´t fell back together with the troopers to watch whats going on? Thompson further states:"But finally the poor animal gained his feet with a groan, and Finkle passed on with a rush to overtake our company". The poor animal was Watson horse but Finckle was able to rush with his horse back to the galloping company column. Kanipe said he was together with Finckle directly behind Tom Custer in the lead of Company C. Finckle then fell a bit back because of his exhausted horse and thats why Kanipe gets the message for the pack train. That seems happend shortly after Watson and Thompson allready felled back because their horses couldn´t do the gallop. I try to study this but i am stuck with a possible contradict between the position of Finckle in the column and the shape of his horse. If Finckle fell back because his horse was exhausted, why he controled Watson on the end of the column and than was able to rush back to the company? Finkle's ride back to his company winded his horse, Kanipe mentioned seeing Finkle struggling along behind. Walter M. Camp talked over the battle with Kanipe and Thompson, visited the valley, l beieve, with Kanipe, and could not fault either man. He simply found Thompson's more exotic stuff impossible to accept. Imagine the NY Times with the roped squaw headline even though it was a different age. As Gerry said, Thompson gave us his tale and had nothing to hide, Camp for example, realised this. The arrivals at Reno Hill are a real dog's dinner of spaghetti to unravel with Mathey and McDougall arriving independently. The pack train was a compact and neat unit in arriving, with an ammunition mule rushed forward by request. There were scouts up on the bluffs running Sioux ponies around and they returned to the bluffs as Ren's men were still coming to the hill. Those scouts were then along the ridge with the advance by Weir and Mathey looking for their friends trapped in the timber below. There is record amongst the Arikara of having seen Custer's command being defeated, which blows some of my time data into problems but it depends what they saw. The scouts were assigned five pack mules and it seems that Good Face came up with them in advance, so those are the packs the scouts met when remounting the Sioux ponies and that may well have been at the Lone tepee three quarters of a mile from Ford A. Benteen's companies arrived by detachment, then MC Dougall as far as l can understand it, then Mathey with the pack train and the troopers organised into two platoons guarding front and rear. Stragglers werE left behind to make progress as best they could. Stragglers and animals miring in morasses did not halt the pack trains advance all day. The Arikara and Sioux scouts took the stolen herd to water some distance from Reno Hill after the retreat from Weir's Peak, or more likely after Edgerley first pulled back. When the Sioux and Cheyennes of Sitting Bulls camp then attacked Reno Hill, those scouts were cut off and moved for Powder River, where the word was that Custer had been killed.
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Post by whitesharkseeker on Oct 2, 2013 22:24:52 GMT -6
The bottom line, and many of you are not seeing this, is there is no way in hell Custer would send a Sergeant as a messenger! End of story, Kanipe was bugging out after seeing the doom that Custer was leading them into. Can't blame him.
-Eric
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 3, 2013 8:49:30 GMT -6
Always great to have An Authority based upon intensive military experience, first class scholarship, and - of course - high intellect.
Did Custer send Kanipe? Who ever said that? Kanipe said TWC sent him, supposedly with C's approval.
What were the ranks of the two messengers Custer definitely sent to Benteen on his way down Ash Creek?
Is there is? I don't know. A deep question.
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Post by mac on Oct 3, 2013 9:11:07 GMT -6
Interesting discussion! Fred makes a very good defence of his position and as he notes we must consider the time taken by Kanipe. First possibility is Fred is right. Second possibility: Tom Custer correctly judges his brother's intent and sends the message to the packs. Kanipe, probably like everyone else at this time, feels there is no panic and takes his own sweet time getting back there perhaps with no intent to return. Custer is told Tom has sent for the packs and says send for Benteen as well and get them all moving. Third possibility: Kanipe is up near the Custers and hears the conversation about sending for Benteen and the packs and thinks great I'm outta here on this one and uses it as a way to take a slow ride back. In short I am still sitting on the fence and trying to explore the time issue. Cheers
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