Benteens orders

[rch]

Fred

You may have at my chin anytime. Obviously we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe that an adjutant was just a messenger. I believe that in the 19th century, the adjutant when used as a messenger was an enormously important kind of messenger. The adjutant was the "organ" of the regimental commander. Cooke could have riden up to Benteen and could have said, "Sir, the General wants you. Please follow me," and Benteen would have been obligated to do just that.

Also Reno had an adjutant whose duties it would appear had nothing to do with writtren orders.

rch

[crzhrs]

RCH:

I don't think Custer could have spared Cooke at that time . . . officers had orderlies for delivering messengers . . . unfortunately for Custer his was an immigrant whose grasp of the English language left something to be desired.

Still have not figured out why Martini at such a critical time. Martini stated he had no idea what the orders were in the message . . . apparently he did not have the curiosity to read it (if he could read English very well) or if he did he never said.

I'm not saying this because Martini was not intelligent, but for being in the US for only two years, his English had to be limited at best.

There should have been more info in the note . . . it was very cryptic at best, with Benteen having to decide to go back for the packs and/or men, which would waste time, try to get stubborn mules to move quickly or to cut off the packs and load them on their horses. All of which would have taken much more time.

As it was Benteen decided NOT go back for the packs because he thought it was more important to go forward and have the packs follow behind.

[d o harris]

The answer to what Custer intended by his last order to Benteen may lie with Benteen himself. No where does Benteen say he went anywhere but to ford A.

[crzhrs]

Custer's last two orders to Benteen were delivered by messengers. What Custer told Benteen orally was apparently never heard by any one else. A little odd that Custer and Benteen were separate from others and no one heard what was discussed.

However, Benteen told Gibson the gist of what was expected . . . if there were any thing else Custer told Benteen it was never known. Still sending two additional messengers with similar instructions seems like there may not be anything more than what Benteen did.

I don't know if those 2 messengers died with Custer . . . if so, we'll never find out.

[fred]

rch--

You are a gentleman, sir!

Horse--

If you are referring to Voss & Sharrow-- sent to Benteen while he was on his hunting mission-- they did, indeed, both die w/ Custer.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

Fred:

So we have only Benteen's word on what oral orders were given to him . . . another loose end.

[d o harris]

Understanding Benteen's orders concerning his oblique march does not depend upon his later revisions. His official report to Reno, July 4, 1876, and his interview with J. J. O'Kelly that appeared in the NY Herald, Aug. 8, 1876 makes it clear enough for anyone who looks for clarification rather than controversy.
At the COI Edgerly testified he heard orders given to both Reno and Benteen, but what he heard could not have referred to any course of action against the main Indian village. Any further orders or understandings that may have existed between Benteen and Custer can only be inferred.
In a letter to Walter Camp Edgerly stated that he thought Custer's idea was for Reno to attack from the South, Benteen from the Southwest, Reno's left, and Custer would go North to prevent escape to the East.
The hesitation Benteen exhibited at the point where the trails of Reno and Benteen diverged opens for question whether Benteen was to join Custer. There could have been no question as to which trail was Custer's. It was only after Benteen died that Edgerly, Godfrey, and Gibson, in communications with Camp, said there was a division at the place the trails divided, D going to the ford, and H and K following Custer's trail. Benteen's statements, even in later life, was that he went to ford A, the implication being he led the entire command toward the ford.
If there was a hesitation on Benteen's part I think it not due to whose trail was which, but that here he realized there wasn't one battle going on, but two, and from widely separated points.

[fred]

d o harris--

I don't think there is any question that it was in the vicinity of Ford A when Benteen first realized there was at least one battle going on, & probably a second somewhere along the ridges. I also believe he was rather surprised at finding Reno on those ridges.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Gumby]

The key element to understanding the battle is to figure out what knowlege the participants had at the time.

Pennington would have us believe that Custer had ESP and knew where the village was, the exact course of the river at all points, the exact spot where Benteen would come out of the rough, the terrain where Reno would later be attacking and the disposition of the Indian forces.

As to why Custer sent two additional couriers to Benteen we should be asking ourselves, "What changed in the short time after Benteen left that caused him to send the additional messages?" If nothing significant changed then it makes sense that he sent them with clarifications of his typically vague instructions. Since Custer was reaching points where he could see what was on the other side of the ridges he sent Benteen to scout, it makes sense that he would send couriers to tell Benteen to go on to the next ridge and so on.

It doesn't take a conspiracy or a wild theory to explain something so simple.

[fred]

Bob--

We are agreeing more & more.

I believe it was Darling who clarified the 2 messengers to Benteen business. Apparently, from the divide, the hill Benteen was to proceed to appeared to be about 5 miles distant & Custer thought Benteen would be able to see into the valley from there. As Custer set off, he realized the distance was exaggerated by the heights & that the height of the hills between that first ridgeline & the valley would interfere w/ Benteen's view. At least one of those messengers was sent to modify Benteen's orders, maybe even the second. Benteen's ire was raised-- maybe by that second messenger-- because he realized what he had to do & didn't need someone-- anyone-- to tell him how to do his job. That kind of reaction, from a hard-bitten, competent soldier, can be very natural. Personal experience!

Incidentally, Pennington would have us believe Custer had ordered Benteen fully into the valley to support Reno & this theory provides more grist for his conspiracy mill. Again, my friend Jack has his theories, then invents various ways to prove them (he has mysterious messengers running all over the place; sort of like the phantom village), then he condemns others for doing the same.

I love him, but... .

Best wishes,
Fred.

[crzhrs]

Didn't Edgerly say he heard Benteen tell Reno he was ordered on a scout to the left?

Thus Reno knew what Benteen was doing but Benteen had no idea what Reno was ordered to do because he left way before Reno got his orders.

So Custer knew Benteen would not be aware of Reno's orders and probably thought by sending for Benteen to come quick he would come straight to him and not Reno.

Again not very clear orders or instructions being relayed by Custer. I believe the whole fiasco was based on no one knowing what the other was doing, because no one knew exactly where the Indians and/or village was located and how to get into it. It was fly by the seat of your pants and the seat got shot full of holes.

[fred]

Horse--

Yeah, things were a tad obtuse, weren't they? That is the problem w/ improvisation, which is what Godfrey brought out some time after the battle.

I will say this, however, & I have brought out the point several times: my buddy Liddic felt that Custer was still in full control when he viewed the whole scene from Sharpshooters' Ridge. He saw Reno coming down the valley and he saw the dust plumes of Benteen & McDougall. He knew where everybody was & they were all doing what he wanted & were within messengers' reach. I believe Liddic is absolutely correct here, & that enabled a jubilant Custer to head down either Cedar Coulee or this thing Liddic refers to as Godfrey's Gorge, eventually sending Martini back w/ our infamous note. That is all the more reason for me to believe Custer wanted the "men" of the packs rather than the "packs" of the packs & why he wanted Benteen to come to him as opposed to Reno.

Think about that; it makes sense, doesn't it? That whole control issue works its way into the Ford B business, the hangout along the East/ Luce/ Blummer's (Nye)-Cartwright Ridge complex, & ultimately the drop-off of Keogh's battalion to await Benteen's arrival (as well as to protect Custer's rear & continue to act as his reserve) all the while our Boy Blunder goes traipsing after Ford D. A neat package? Too neat?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Gumby]

Correct. Custer may have thought he knew what everyone was doing but his own obtuse orders got him into trouble. If you expect people to follow orders precisely you must first give them precise orders.

Things came undone because he started Reno too soon, which did not allow time for Benteen to come up oe he himself to get into an attack position. At the Washita he gave his officers time to get into position for a coordinated attack. At LBH there were no coordinated attacks. It cost him the battle and his life.

[elisabeth]

Plus, by hanging around for Benteen (assuming that is what he was hanging around for) he gave the Indians time to organise against him ...

I'm puzzled, though. Surely he must have foreseen the possibility that, absent precise orders, Benteen would "pitch in" to the first fight he came across? Even, that he might have had no choice -- because once Benteen's at Ford A, it's just pure good luck that none of the Indians from the valley fight spot this new threat and come after it.

Did it matter to Custer where Benteen struck, as long as he struck somewhere? A bigger force engaging warriors to the south would have left Custer free to do what he liked in the village, and with all five companies ...

[fred]

Elisabeth--

Let us assume Custer was waiting-- & I do make that assumption. What or who else would he be waiting for but Benteen?

And Bob is correct: there was a great lack of coordination. Once Custer got involved w/ the hills & dales beyond SSR or Weir Peaks, his control began to break down. This lack of communications was one of the elements of our discussions much earlier, remember? It is always a key element in military operations & it is one of the reasons I cannot accept the "right flank attack" or the "Benteen into the valley" arguments. Even in MTC or wherever he was when he sent Martini back, Custer thought he had control. The tragedy occurred because he didn't.

Best wishes,
Fred.