Benteens orders

[elisabeth]

The assumption is that Custer was waiting for Benteen to join him. I'm just querying whether it's possible he was waiting for Benteen to enter the fray. Which could have been by charging across Ford A in Reno's support. (If Reno hadn't run for the hills by then.)

[crzhrs]

It's quite possible that Custer just wanted Benteen to end his scout and get involved with the battle . . . and anywhere he could. But if Custer could not find a place to get down to the village until the LSH area, he may have assumed that Benteen couldn't and would end up there with him.

[fred]

Elisabeth--

I tend to doubt it. Custer wanted Benteen; it is why he waited. To me, it is why his body was found on Last Stand Hill & not on the valley floor.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

Maybe ...

Boston will have told him that Benteen was just minutes behind him. When those minutes pass and there's still no sign of Benteen, he has to conclude that something's gone wrong. This is what has me foxed (no pun intended). He's always been good at thinking on his feet. Why does he now sacrifice three-fifths of his available manpower, the Right Wing, to standing around waiting to effect a junction that's clearly not going to happen? When every further minute that passes just makes the enemy stronger? Why doesn't he either (1) attack with everything he's got, or (2) try to reunite with whatever forces are left to him (he can't know, at this stage, that Benteen, packs, whoever, haven't got a battle of their own going on) and see what can be salvaged from the mess? No-one could expect him to "capture" a village of that size; if he could do even a bit of damage, he could probably emerge with his reputation intact.

Hard to understand his thinking, I have to say ...

[crzhrs]

I agree that Custer must have realized that Benteen was at best delayed, or at worse, not coming. Boston must have told his brother that he had left Benteen and he should be coming up soon. Granted one man can move faster than many, but still Benteen should be on his way. I have always wondered what part Boston's message to his brother played in Custer's battle plan. It may have been the most important part of Custer's decision.

I can't see Custer sitting on his horse on a ridge reading a newspaper waiting for Benteen. He must have decided he had to move on, leave Keough in reserve to wait for Benteen with who knows what orders, attack as soon as Benteen arrives possibly, while Custer moves ahead and tries to attack from the far end of the village.

Custer must have realized that to sit and wait while the Indians were "napping" would allow them to "waken" on the wrong side of the bed. Either strike now or lose the offensive . . . and apparently the offensive was lost, probably much faster than anyone anticipated.

[weir]

crzhrs said:

I agree that Custer must have realized that Benteen was at best delayed, or at worse, not coming. Boston must have told his brother that he had left Benteen and he should be coming up soon. Granted one man can move faster than many, but still Benteen should be on his way. I have always wondered what part Boston's message to his brother played in Custer's battle plan. It may have been the most important part of Custer's decision.

I can't see Custer sitting on his horse on a ridge reading a newspaper waiting for Benteen.

He did not. He scouted the ford, in order to gain time when Benteen will arrive, be ordered to charge the village in the center and Custer would have been in the North.

Still, I don't understand why you find strange that Custer wanted to attack with the majority of his men...

[fred]

West, my friend! Welcome home.

I agree w/ you: Custer wanted to attack w/ the majority of his men; but I believe Crzhrs has said the same thing.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[weir]

fred said:

West, my friend! Welcome home.

I agree w/ you: Custer wanted to attack w/ the majority of his men; but I believe Crzhrs has said the same thing.

Best wishes,
Fred.

Hi fred,

How was your trip ?

crzhrs seems to say Custer did move on and let Keogh to wait for Benteen. On my point of view, Custer was already waiting Benteen when he scouted the ford and even earlier, when he rode on the bluffs.

[crzhrs]

West:

I was being funny when I said "I can't see Custer sitting on his horse on a ridge reading a newspaper waiting for Benteen."

He was not sitting around, he continued on, and may have left Keough in reserve to await Benteen but took the majority of his men with him.

[d o harris]

Custer waited for Benteen. Benteen had a message to come on, apparently to Custer. But Benteen instead rode to the ford? This doesn't compute.

[fred]

Elisabeth--

There was no reason for Custer to wait if he wasn't waiting for Benteen. While the battle w/ Reno began fast & continued furiously, the battle w/ Custer took a comparatively long time to unfold. Most of the Indians who threatened Reno's flank & then high-tailed it after the retreating soldiers were mounted. Many of those who pursued Custer were not. The latter moved bush to bush, fold to fold. The ensuing battle started in a rather desultory manner. Firing was at long range. When I was at the battlefield on April 12 & 13, I stood on top of Calhoun Hill and looked toward the river & Greasy Grass Ridge. I also wanted to see this swale where L & C Companies kept their horses. (I assume, I's were there as well.) When I saw it, I was completely surprised to see that no direct-fire weapons could possibly reach anything hidden there; it was much deeper than I had anticipated. Then I realized that Indians, hidden on the reverse slope of GGR or infiltrating up the coulee and crevices, could have easily shot arrows a great distance in the air, lobbing them right into that area.

This feeds one of my pet theories: that Henry Harrington led a C Company charge out of that swale & into Calhoun Coulee, scattering the miscreants to & fro. (Actually, this is a Fox theory, not a Fred theory. My brain is not fertile enough to come up w/ these things, so I have to rely on people like Fox, Liddic, Michno, & Pennington. I just latch on to them because I usually do not like the direction those guys-- Fox is excepted-- take them. Credit where credit is due.) From some point there, Harrington may have strung out his platoon, anchoring it on the 2 ridges running perpendicular to Battle Ridge. (The left ridge, facing the river, would turn out to be Finley or Calhoun Ridge.)

That was when the battle-- to me & Fox-- began in earnest. By this time, Custer was well north, though maybe already returning from his "Ford D" foray, though I have yet to work out the timing sequences (as usual, right?). All this takes time, but the Indians were not pushing it like they pushed at Reno. Maybe even many of those who fought Reno mounted, had dismounted to fight Custer, I don't know, but it is a possibility. Infiltration is the key word during the Custer fight.

Benteen, meanwhile, is on his way. His command has just negotiated a series of easy ups & tough downs, & has returned to the Reno Creek environs. He waters exhausted horses & moves forward, a series of events, i.e., Kanipe, Martini, volley firing, making impressions on his mind as well as the minds of his men & officers. Some-- Weir-- are more anxious than others. Weir is a "Clansman," so he is rightfully concerned. They reach the "flats," Weir heads toward Ford A, Benteen's other 2 troops head more toward the other trail. It is confusing until a scout motions them up-ridge. It is Benteen's intention to go to Custer, not Reno; but then, Benteen has no idea where Reno is, anyway. He knows there is action in the valley, but that could be Reno or Custer or both, for all Benteen knows; but he is told to head north up the ridge. That prodding, plus the developing (matured?) fiasco he is seeing in the valley, makes him decide the high ground is the best. Martini offers nothing-- it isn't his place to do so-- & Benteen feels he doesn't need the man's input, anyway. (I have no problem w/ that. As an officer, if I need the input, I'll ask; but I want to see the ground & whatever else there is to see, for myself. I will do the recon under these circumstances.)

So Benteen, the packs somewhere behind him, reads up-ridge. To me, the telling comment has always been Benteen's remark, "Where the hell is Custer?" Those 4 or 5 words (I love to embellish!) say almost everything. They tell me Benteen was heading for Custer, looking for him, & he wasn't dogging it in doing so.

While I enjoy listening to & reading contrary theories & I feel I am not dogmatic about this whole thing, frequently changing ideas, I cannot do so unless they make more sense to me than what I have just written. Some things I sort of put in abeyance-- like Liddic's SSR theory-- because they intrigue me & until I can more or less prove or disprove them (actually, Liddic's theory about Custer going to SSR lends tremendous support to that whole deal about Ford B & the battalion breakdown in the RR; the 2 fit live a hand in a glove). I also have my pets, like Fox' theory of Harrington charging into Calhoun Coulee. While he discounts that idea, Greg Michno feels that at least 1 platoon of C Company actually did effect that movement. I just don't believe the 7th Cavalry acted w/ much-- if any-- platoon action that day. Usually, the smaller the units engaged, the more highly trained they are & I am not sure these guys were that well-trained.

Anyway, I have rambled on much too long & now have to go onto the golf course out my lanai door & hope someone can hit me w/ a golf ball.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Gumby]

D O Harris,
Benteen went to Ford A (Reno's first crossing) because it was on the way and he heard the shooting. He didn't know who the soldiers across the river belonged to. He was preparing to cross himself when he was waved to the north by one of the Crow scouts. He then turned in that direction and found Reno. Until that time he didn't know where Custer was.

Fred,
I don't believe L's horses were in the ravine behind Calhoun Ridge. I am pretty positive they were actually in the Ravine behind Calhoun Hill. Company C probably kept theirs behind the ridge after they moved onto Calhoun Ridge and Greasy Grass Ridge. I don't believe they were there for more than about fifteen or twenty minutes before they were routed. I am positive that Lt. Harrington was killed on Calhoun Ridge, which helped spur on the panic started by a group of about 80 warriors crossing the river at Deep Ravine and turning southeast towards the rear of Company C. Another group of warriors continued up Deep Ravine and ended up on Battle Ridge behind Keogh. That would explain how Keogh's battalion collapsed so quickly.
The warriors that were harrassing the horse holders would then have been the ones that moved up Deep Coulie and got onto the ridge east of Battle Ridge. They could easily see the Company L horse holders from there.

[elisabeth]

Fred,

I can't fault your reasoning; it's impeccable, as always. Perhaps the question I should have asked is: assuming he was waiting for Benteen -- was he right to do so? (Obviously not, given the outcome, but let's leave Benteen's non-appearance out of the picture for the moment.) Imagine Benteen ignores Reno and barrels along the bluffs to join Custer. Even travelling at speed, he can't get there before Custer's blown the element of surprise. And once that's gone, so has Custer's best hope of success. The first rule of Indian warfare, by all accounts, was always "if you've found 'em, hit 'em". (Custer himself waxed vicious in the press about Reno's failure to do just that on his earlier scout.) Yet suddenly, for the first time in his life, he decides to hang around in plain view allowing the enemy to reinforce itself, infiltrate his ground, deny him access to workable cavalry terrain, and remove its non-coms to safety. In d. o.'s earlier words, "it does not compute".

Was it a mistake -- even if Benteen had come?

[mcaryf]

The whole problem with this "waiting for Benteen" line is just what Custer thought or knew was happening with Reno.

Has he just decided to leave one lot of 120 men out to dry because he is waiting for another lot of 120? This is the part of the battle that makes least sense to me. The fact that he does nothing but a minor feint at Ford B sort of suggests that Custer thinks Reno is already defeated/destroyed but if he does think that then it is imperative that he reunites the rest of his command and the best way to do that is for him to move back to Weir Point.

regards

Mike

[d o harris]

Gumby,--- the point I was trying to make is that if Benteen did go to ford A this is clear evidence he did not regard the message from Cooke as an order to join Custer.
That Weir bolted to the ford is another indication there was some prior understanding between Custer and Benteen as to how Benteen should rejoin the command. If there had been the least implication that Benteen was to join Custer Weir would have zoomed North, not West.
In everything Benteen said and did for the rest of his life he never varied for the story that he went to the ford. His insistence on this is probably because that was how he interpreted his orders. It was only after his death that Edgerly, Gibson, and Godfrey revealed his battalion divided where the Custer/Reno trail diverged.
If his orders were to join Custer, at the divergence of trails Benteen should have turned North without conversation, and proceeded forthwith. His only justification for not doing so is his instructions required he join Reno, or, as Elisabeth mentioned earlier, that he ride to the sound of guns