Benteens orders

[elisabeth]

And according to Gibson's first letter home to his wife, before any CYA had set in, the orders were to "rejoin the command" -- I think that's his wording. Which makes sense, as no division had then taken place. Unless we're going to posit some other orders for which we have no evidence, the implication has to be that the Martini order is a straightforward recall: effectively, come back, pitch in. Weir shows small sign of thinking especially logically that day, so may not have studied the relative sizes of the two trails, but his action does suggest a general understanding that they were simply to get involved at the first opportunity. The fly in the ointment was the scouts. Best of intentions, no doubt, but it was their interference that took Benteen out of the battle. Now it's true that in some versions of his account, he says that the number of Indians he could see in the valley was such that he didn't think crossing at Ford A was a wise or healthy thing to do; and once he sees soldiers on the bluffs, he has no reason to think they're not Custer's command, and logic dictates that he join them. But without a) scouts gesturing and b) soldiers on the bluffs, is there any reason to think he wouldn't have galloped into the only fight he was aware of?

This would have kept the valley fight Indians occupied for a while longer. And might have drawn others south from the village before Custer was spotted. Which still leaves us wondering what Custer would have done in those circumstances. If he wasn't going to charge the village when it was "napping" -- was he ever?

[fred]

Bob--

That was a mistake on my part. I did not mean to say C Company held its horses in Calhoun Coulee. Thanks for correcting it. I also agree w/ just about everything you wrote there, but my little fantasy scenario has Harrington charging into Calhoun Coulee, routing the Indians who were there, creeping & crawling, then stringing out w/ its right flank on the ridge to the north of the coulee itself (I euphemistically label it "Harrington Ridge"-- the man, for whatever reason, fascinates me!) & the left flank on Finley/ Calhoun Ridge. Again, in my own little world, I then have Indians moving up Deep Ravine, spotting soldiers atop "Harrington Ridge," & the debacle begins. As I said, that's my contribution to the LBH event, semi-stolen from Richard Allan Fox, Jr.

Evidence?

An arid imagination, watered by a smile.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[d o harris]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but to complete the quote of Lt. Gibson that Elisabeth referred to, "...rejoin the command as quickly as possible."
Weir first bolted at the morass, when after the horses had been watered, Benteen lingered, and continued to linger after the sound of gunfire could be heard from the LBH. Then Weir bolted. Benteen did set in motion H & K and galloped to the front, getting 200 yds ahead of D company.
There was no necessity to study the trail to determine which was Custer's. Certainly, the quick time with Martini revealed that, and from the morass on down they had the opportunity to know the size of each trail, hence, to know which was Custer's.
That Benteen did pause at the morass longer than absolutely necessary to water the horses, we ought to ask why?---Especially after it became obvious there was a fight going on. He waited until the pack train arrived. In one of his accounts Godfrey even states that K troop mules were the first into the morass, became bogged down, and because each troop was responsible for its own mules, he sent troopers into the morass to free the mules. Benteen only moved when Weir forced his hand. If this is true then we have two possibilities.
First, Benteen was being deliberately obstructionist, determined not to aid Custer regardless of what was happening in the valley of the LBH. Every possible argument weighs against this interpretation.
Second, Benteen had some reason to believe he had, after returning to the trail, responsibility to assure the expeditious passage of the packs. The sensible thing to do, or a previous understanding?

[elisabeth]

Well, the "bring packs" part of Martini's message -- especially with the repetition -- kind of made it his responsibility? (Maybe, seeing no reaction on McDougall's and Mathey's part to Kanipe's alleged message, he could have begun to suspect Kanipe hadn't delivered it, which would make it all the more important for him to liaise with the packtrain.)

If he'd wanted to be obstructionist, he could have acted on the letter of the Martini order and either gone back for the packtrain, or waited pointlessly on the trail till they caught up. Instead, he sensibly uses the catch-up time to water his horses, so that as soon as the packs are up he can move on. No previous understanding needed, I think; just a common-sense interpretation of a not-very-clear order ...

[fred]

d o--

I generally agree w/ most of what you have to say, but I take some exception to this Benteen business. I think you may be making it just a bit too complicated. I believe it to be a little more straightforward.

Benteen spent no little time watering his horses, more for what they had probably just gone through than for the whole 40-day campaign in general. His 3-company command had just traversed considerably more difficult terrain than had the others. So, for this, I cannot fault the man. Regardless of who led out, who overtook whom, the fact remains that Benteen saw the veer-off tracks, the two commands splitting. I think this was closer to Ford A than most people believe, maybe within 1/2 mile. Liddic believes the same, so I am not spouting new theory here. No one has said Benteen told Weir to follow the tracks that led to Ford A while he-- Benteen-- would follow the others, but the fact remains that when reached, there were 2 trails & probably some quick head-scratching: who went where? Benteen had no way-- at this point-- of knowing Reno went into the valley & Custer followed the ridges.

Weir may have simply followed the one in front of him & Benteen, seeing that, sent his other 2 companies to the left. I do believe Benteen more out ahead of his command, maybe even close to Ford A to give himself the advantage of peering into the valley. I know I would have.

At this point, what do we know? We know the Indians are running: Kanipe told us, Martini told us (even if he didn't use the word "skedaddling"), & our experience in past actions is telling us that by the sound of the firing we are hearing, the white hats are in the lead. We also know the rest of the command has split, but who has gone where? Suddenly we are confronted by a Crow scout who is wildly or otherwise telling us to take the ridge trail.

Weir is re-called & up the hill we go.

I believe Benteen used as much haste as he thought prudent, not killing himself because he didn't know exactly what was going on! Quite frankly, I would have acted in a very similar fashion, knowing-- regardless of what mules broke for the water first, last, & in between-- that I didn't know very much & knowing I had a very competent officer in McDougall herding the damned beasts as best he could. If Benteen was deliberately dogging it-- as some of us would have-- he would have been dilly-dallying w/ the packs (& I am not implying you are saying Benteen dallied) rather than breaking leather-- at times-- along the trail.

To me, the most telling thing of the entire Benteen episode was his question when he met Reno: "Where is Custer?" It says volumes: (a) Reno's on the hilltop, so which trail did he actually take? (b) Is Custer in the valley too or did I follow his trail up here? (c) Is Custer fighting? (d) Have you been whipped? (e) Did Custer go for help? (f) Is this all the Indians? (g) Who is supporting whom, or is there anyone supporting anyone?

And it can go on & on. Again, I don't want to preach to you, d o. You are an older, mature fellow w/ a better grasp of this whole thing than I have, but please, do not fall into the trap of making it too complicated. This was probably fast-paced, one-guy-goes-here, one-guy-goes-there-type action, not a lot of time to think, highly dangerous & scary action. The late afternoon & following day was foremost on everyone's brain, & previous thoughts & opinions only formed after the danger was past. That skews memory. The tracks are real; the dead guy lying there is real. Timing becomes a figment of one's imagination, sentence inflection changes, words said in one place suddenly appear in another; I meant to do something, but I didn't suddenly becomes, I did it later, & on & on.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[q]

FRED:

I do not agree w/ a lot of what I have read on this thread.

First of all, I FIRMLY believe Custer sent Reno to attack the village, not some 40 or 50 warriors running hither & yon. To me, that makes no sense. I attack the warriors, I kill them or they scatter... then what? Relax? Does this make any sense? What DOES make sense to me, is that Reno blasts down the valley, trumpets blaring & either runs into the village or drags enough Indians OUT of the village to tie down the load of the warriors. Remember, when Custer issued his orders to Reno, no one yet had any earthly idea of the size of what they were taking on. They saw a chimp, they met a gorilla.

At the time those orders were issued to Reno the village had been spotted. However, we do know that not enough of it had been spotted to suggest that it was of considerable size.... Remember the statments by the troopers who attacked with Reno... they couldn't see downriver because of the bend in the river and the trees. I don't know how much they could have seen from that "knoll" near the lone tepee, but it couldn't have been much more than what was later reported from near ford a. So Custer's order... (village or 40/ 50 warriors) was dependent upon incomplete knowledge of how big that (part of the) village was. If the indians had spread out their encampments as they had at the Washita then the order is a moot point. And we don't know what Custer was thinking.... was this the problem? Reno was to "bring them to battle", however he or anyone else interprets that... charge or otherwise. And remember, Custer never rescinded those orders, even when Reno sent back 2 couriers stating that a considerable force of indians was in his front. The size and scope of that village, nor for that matter the mere 40 or 50 warriors meant anything.... Reno was to attack it.

Next, why the hell would Custer send a note, "Come quick, bring packs," if he wanted Benteen to assist Reno? Wouldn't it make more sense to write, "Help Reno, bring packs"? Custer meant for Benteen to come to CUSTER'S aid because Custer wanted the additional men w/ the packs. He didn't need the ammo; he hadn't fired a shot! Indians were to Custer, in all likelihood running. He wanted the men so he could round 'em up, kill 'em, or do whatever else he might have wanted a semi-unified command to do.

Though I must admit I like your candor. I cannot agree with you. Your statement..."He [Custer] didn't need the ammo; he hadn't fired a shot!" Is quite illuminating, isn't it. If he didn't need the ammo, just exactly who did? We both know the answer to that one, don't we? Did Custer know Reno engaged the indians? Did Custer know how much fighting Reno's men had done? You actually mean that he didn't want Reno to have any of those packs? I'm shocked!



Custer knew Benteen had completed his scout, & I do not believe Custer EVER ordered Benteen into the valley.

Well he may not have. But according to Benteen he was..."valley hunting...." I guess he didn't find the right one, huh? ;D

[Gumby]

Weir got impatient waiting for the last of the horses to be watered and took off on his own. Weir had no fear of court-martial because he knew Custer would not approve any such action by Benteen (remember the dislike worked both ways). Custer had already shown this when he promoted Ryan back to First Sgt prior to the start of the campaign after Benteen had busted him down for abusing enlisted men. Weir probably didn't like his men having to eat the dust of Benteen's on the trail.

When they reach the split in the trail, Weir went one way and the other companies went the other, and Benteen stayed between them somewhat. Neither Martin nor Kanipe ever mentioned Reno's seperation from Custer. Benteen has no idea who is across the river until he reached the bluffs. His thoughts were along the lines of; If Custer has the Indians on the run, who are those guys getting their butts kicked? He was about to find out when he was motioned to the north by the Crow scout. He finds Reno on the bluffs and asks, "Where's Custer?"

Fred,
As to the Company C charge, I agree with it. They were running off the warriors crawling across Calhoun Ridge, on Calhoun's right flank. They then took up positions there until they are routed, after the death of Harrington (my own twist supported by an Indian account).

[fred]

Bob--

I agree w/ you. And don't you just love that Harrington theory?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[fred]

q--

I am a little confused. Your first paragraph... what's your point? Are you agreeing w/ me or disagreeing w/ me? It appears the former. And don't forget the dust that was being raised on a dry, 103 degree day, as Reno began his charge.

Paragraph 2: This statement by you engenders only a one-word answer: Really! And to explain: what would you have Custer do? Sit around, waiting, breaking down the packs, oh, one for you, 2 for me; 3 for you 4 for me? Get real, this was a military operation, sloppy or not, not a checkers game where you make the move, then keep your finger on the piece so you can change your mind. Custer ordered the packs forward. Period! He didn't order them to Reno, regardless of what he knew of the major's circumstances. Whether Custer would divvy up the ammo is almost ludicrous to contemplate. This was-- or would soon be, & Custer knew it-- a fast-moving, scattering, sharp, dangerous, wild, hot, & uncomfortable operation, not a college debate. Reno was a Civil War hero; he could take care of himself.

Paragraph 3: You take those words, "Valley hunting," at their literal sense? Figure it out: what else was he doing? He was hunting for Indians in the valley, wasn't he? When he saw the valley empty, he headed back for the trail. What would you have him do, break out the canteen cups & start digging for them?

I find your comments a bit snide & right now I'm not in the mood for snide. If I have read you wrong, I certainly-- and publicly-- apologize. I hope I am wrong. The last thing this board needs is another fight because one-- or two-- of us think they have all the answers. This is a board of opinion & even though many of us diverge, we do so in an amicable, mature manner. If you are barking for a fight, you're in the wrong place.

Best wishes (& I mean that),
Fred.

[q]

FRED:
I am a little confused. Your first paragraph... what's your point? Are you agreeing w/ me or disagreeing w/ me?...

Actually neither! Gumby was correct in his assumption that the origional orders issued were to give chase and bring to battle the 40 to 50 or so warriors. Whether or not Custer chose to word his orders or change them to something else would be mere conjecture. Gerard and several others reported seeing the village from the knoll about 50 yards from the lone tepee. This happening at the time just prior to Reno recieving his orders. But that sighting was limited. So Custer didn't have complete knowledge of whether it was one huge joined village or scattered settlements up and down the river... as at the Washita. Thus the orders were based as Gumby pointed out on the 40 to 50 warriors coming from or going to an indian village of undetermined size.

You said, "I FIRMLY believe Custer sent Reno to attack the village, not some 40 or 50 warriors running hither & yon. To me, that makes no sense." The sense was... if what they were witnessing was a small village then attacking, or bringing to battle any element of it was the purpose of his orders.

Now then where you are wrong is in assuming that Custer sent Reno to attack the village. Based upon what he, Custer, knew at the time, no. Why? Because Reno waivered and send back 2 couriers to question Custer's orders after seeing an immense force of indians and the village. If Reno had not done that then I would have said you were correct.

Paragraph 2: This statement by you engenders only a one-word answer: Really! And to explain: what would you have Custer do? Sit around, waiting, breaking down the packs, oh, one for you, 2 for me; 3 for you 4 for me? Get real, this was a military operation, sloppy or not, not a checkers game where you make the move, then keep your finger on the piece so you can change your mind. Custer ordered the packs forward. Period! He didn't order them to Reno, regardless of what he knew of the major's circumstances. Whether Custer would divvy up the ammo is almost ludicrous to contemplate. This was-- or would soon be, & Custer knew it-- a fast-moving, scattering, sharp, dangerous, wild, hot, & uncomfortable operation, not a college debate. Reno was a Civil War hero; he could take care of himself.

They why did Custer say that he and the "whole outfit" would support him? Doesn't support come from many sources, just as Custer said it would? To include and surely not exclude ammunition, food and other logisitical support? Whose ludicrous now?

Paragraph 3: You take those words, "Valley hunting," at their literal sense? Figure it out: what else was he doing? He was hunting for Indians in the valley, wasn't he? When he saw the valley empty, he headed back for the trail. What would you have him do, break out the canteen cups & start digging for them?

Colourful writing can be quite entertaining. Yours is quite brilliant. Although a bit insulting and rude. I believe it was Elisabeth who suggested that it was Custer's intent that Benteen support Reno by crossing the river and taking position on Reno's left. The question is... why didn't he? If he was sent to the left of Reno's column to find a "valley" with some "indians" in it. Then when he did, he still should have been to the left of Reno's position. If he approached as close as you say to Reno's ford a, then why not continue on and assist? His orders up to that point had not changed.

I find your comments a bit snide & right now I'm not in the mood for snide. If I have read you wrong, I certainly-- and publicly-- apologize. I hope I am wrong. The last thing this board needs is another fight because one-- or two-- of us think they have all the answers. This is a board of opinion & even though many of us diverge, we do so in an amicable, mature manner. If you are barking for a fight, you're in the wrong place.
Best wishes (& I mean that),

I seriously doubt the sincerity of you last remark. It was not me who chose to use adversarial words in support of mere beleif and not fact. Lets see if you can be amicable and mature in your reply.

[mcaryf]

I think we have to allow Benteen a reasonable deductive ability.

He has a message via Martini that a big village has been found. Where is that village likely to be? Answer it will be on the valley floor near the water not up on the bluffs. So now Benteen knows broadly where the village will be. He has asked Martini where Custer is and got the answer he should be charging through the village right now. Thus even if he sees Custer's trail going up the bluffs that does not mean this is now the quickest route to get to Custer because Custer is probably fighting in the village in the valley. Hence the doubt about which way to go which has nothing to do with any earlier orders but everything to do with where the hell is everybody.

I cannot read anything too significant into Benteen's first question to Reno being "where is Custer?". This is the obvious question that anyone must ask in the circumstances and again does not indicate anything one way or the other with respect to how Benteen interprets his orders

We know from Benteen's letters etc that he did feel the Martini message gave him some responsibility for the safety of the pack train but that he could still discharge that by advancing rapidly whilst still keeping his force between the train and the now known location of the village. His problems with the order becomes rather more acute after the merger with Reno when he discovers that he might have to go via the bluffs to follow Custer thus exposing the train and I can understand him not doing that until the train is up. However, I do think it would have made a lot of sense to send a one company recce to look at the situation from Weir Point. That eventually happened but not as a result of Benteen's own order.

Personally I do not think sending such a recce would have made any difference to the eventual outcome but it would probably have saved a bit more of Benteen's reputation and his own subsequent feelings of guilt.

I think the only thing Benteen could actually have done that would possibly have made a difference to Custer's fate was a fairly rapid move off Reno Hill directly towards the village threatening to renew Reno's attack. However, that suggestion comes as a result of 20/20 hindsight and does not really chime with the orders Custer had given him or look too sensible at the time considering how many Indians he has recently seen down there, it is only with hindsight that we know they were not still concealed nearby in large numbers.

regards

Mike

[Gumby]

Mike,
You are correct, at the time nobody knew Custer was in trouble (including Custer). At any rate, to quickly charge into the village he would have to move toward Ford B, which he does not yet know exists, or move back to Reno's original crossing and then charge back down the valley. To attempt to charge down the route used by Reno in his retreat was not a great option because it could only have been done in single file. You charge in a line not in a column.

[jc]

It's my understanding that Benteen's primary defense of his failure to comply with Custer's order to 'come on and be quick' was that he believed at the time he received it that Custer was already dead. In that case, according to his way of thinking, how then could the order have been disobeyed?

Section 21 in the Articles of War for 1874 (and was not revised until 1895) states:

Any officer or soldier who, on any pretense whatsoever, strikes his superior officer, or draws or lifts up any weapon, or offers any violence against him, being in the execution of his office, or disobeys any lawful command of his superior officer, shall suffer death, or such other punishment as a court martial may direct.

As far as Reno having the power to countermand Custer's order to Benteen, military law states:

" ... the only exceptions recognized to the rule of obedience being cases of orders so manifestly beyond the legal power or discretion of the commander as to admit of no rational doubt of their unlawfulness."

There was at that particular time however only a single legal precedent prior to the LBH. At Second Manassas, or Bull Run, General John Pope ordered Major General Fitz John Porter to attack 'Stonewall' Jackson. Believing himself outnumbered at least 3 to 1, Porter refused. His conviction was automatic. Although Porter was spared from facing a firing squad he was nevertheless dismissed from the service.

It's highly probable that Benteen was fully aware that Reno had no authority to countermand Custer's order and so he used the only possible loophole in the article mentioned above, which was "being in the execution of his office". That is to say, if Benteen believed that Custer was dead at the time he received his written order, by law, he was not obligated to obey.

It's quite apparent that the main object of the army after the botched and highly mismanaged Campaign of 1876 was merely to put an end to the bad publicity. With regard to the specific Article of War mentioned above, that the matter of Benteen's questionable conduct during the battle wasn't investigated much, if at all, nor was there actually any probing questions asked of him at the RCOI, is blatant evidence that the powers that be were far more interested in upholding the honor of the army, which was best served by ignoring the question of Benteen's disobedience entirely.

If, under due process of law, Major General Fitz John Porter was tried and found guilty of disobedience in following an order and was thereby punished accordingly, likewise Benteen should have been brought to trial for his action, or rather for his lack thereof.

One cannot by modern standards attempt to evaluate the matter of disobedience and/or even pose the question as to whether one had the justification to disobey an order. The military had a much stricter code of ethics in 1876. Duty, Honor, Country meant just that. A hundred years ago one didn't take into consideration their own position concerning an order, they simply obeyed.

"Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death"


This post does not take up the issue of whether or not Benteen's pace quickened after receiving his order from Custer, whether or not he could have gotten through to Custer, and/or other numerous unanswered questions related to the battle. It merely poses the question, according to the Articles of War at the time, did Benteen, whatever the reason, disobey a direct order given to him by his commanding officer to 'come on and be quick'. It's my belief that he did.

jc

[mcaryf]

Hi jc

Your analysis about orders may well be correct, I do not know the state of military law at the time. However, you miss a key point in that Benteen was also ordered to bring the packs, it is the case that as soon as the packs were up Benteen set off with them. Thus there is absolutely no question of Benteen being at risk of court martial or whatever, he precisely followed the orders he was given. The debate as such is whether he should have disregarded his orders and moved sooner not whether or not he obeyed them.

Regards

Mike

[rch]

The Ryan incident doesnt tell us much about the Custe/Benteen relationship. Ryan's promotion to 1st Sgt. means only that French wanted him as his 1st Sgt. Regimental commanders followed the recommendations of the company commanders.

Also about that time, Custer made Benteen a wing commander, and Benteen later wrote to Goldin that he thought Custer was ,in effect, kissing up (my words) to him because Custer had learned that the head of Associated Press was an old friend of Benteen's.

rch