Benteens orders

[Jas. Watson]

I thought I was pretty up on the LBH battle, but I see some lapses in my 'knowlege'. Perhaps I can get the kick in the pants I need here.
Where in the "Come quick, big village..." note does it ever infer that Custer wants Benteen to come to Custer's battalion? Benteen was early on sent off on a scout to the left, keeping watch to the left, to watch for escaping hostiles. At that point the location or extent of the village was not absolutely certain.
I have always assumed that the note meant in effect that the village was located, it was a big one, so stop the scout to the left and come on up and 'get into it' (and be sure to bring up the packs). I don't read into it anywhere that Benteen was to report to Custer personally...yet everyone here makes the assumption that Custer was waiting for Benteen--and with the packs (as it was reiterated twice in the note was a priority), it was a little unrealistic--how is this assumption made?

[Tricia]

James--

I believe this was discussed in another thread, but RCH has stated that since Martini was acting as GAC's orderly for the day, the implication is that Benteen was to report to Custer. Granted, this is implied ...

Thanks for bringing up a new issue; I've had enough of the Elgin watch company to last me a lifetime ...

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[crzhrs]

Martini was Custer's orderly, but did Benteen know where to go?

Martini stated: "General Custer turned round and called his Adjutant and gave him instructions to write a despatch to Capt. Benteen. I don't know what it was . . ."

Apparently Martini had no idea what was written, could not tell if the message was vital or anything else. However, he did give the FALSE impression that Custer was about to ride through the village and gain a victory.

Benteen's response was that he would be of no use to Custer if he had to go back for the pack train. So it "sounds" like Benteen knew he was to go to Custer. Finding him what be the other issue.

However Benteen got side tracked by Reno and the rest is history . . .

[rch]

Leyton,

I didn't make myself clear. My view is that Martin was "only" an orderly. That he would not have been the proper person to send to Benteen if Custer wanted Benteen to ignore the sound of the guns and come directly to him. The same thing can be said of Kanipe and the message to the pack train. In both cases I think they were sent to only hurry Benteen and the packs on their way.

If Custer wanted Benteen and the packs to come to him, the person to send was the Regimental Adjutant, and the thing to do was wait or give Benteen some word of exactly where Custer wanted him.

Let me be more specific. I believe that Benteen knew where Custer wanted him. He wanted Benteen in the valley of the Little Big Horn supporting Reno one way or the other, either when he reached the valley by the movement to the left or by following the trail to the valley after his return to it. Benteen in his report (which was not included in the exhibits during the RCOI) stated that Custer gave him the authority to return to the trail on his own discretion. I do not believe at the RCOI or in later years Benteen ever mentioned that fact again.

Also, Benteen went directly to the river. Why? Because Benteen knew that was where he was supposed to go.

rch

[Gumby]

Unfortunately, Custer's orders were pretty general (no pun intended) that day. He did not order Reno to charge the village either, as some people claim. He was to charge a group of about forty warriors that were seen running away. We don't know exactly what Custer's intentions were because of the lack of clarity in his orders and the poor courier he chose to send to deliver the message. Another problem was that when Martin left Custer had yet to get into the fight so nothing of note had happened for Martin to describe. His stories kept changing for the rest of his life, which leave us nothing consistant to be sure of. For instance, he claimed he looked back and observed Custer retreating toward Calhoun Hill, yet he tells others that he thought Custer must have ridden through the village by the time he reached Benteen with the message. It is no wonder that Benteen was unimpressed with Martin as a soldier.

That is why I get tired of all of the conspiracy nonsense. Neither the soldier nor the Indian accounts are consistant, the outright lies are mostly obvious, and nobody seemed to have a clue as to what was actually going on until it smacked them dead in the face.

[crzhrs]

If we listen to all the testimony it seems like once Custer gave Reno's his orders, everything sped up out of control and with no one at the wheel.

Benteen was long gone and out of the picture, Reno was suppose to chase/attack running Indians or a fleeing village, Custer was suppose to support Reno . . . and the Indians were suppose to be napping.

No wonder we are still trying to figure out what happened . . .

[Jas. Watson]

So in otherwords, it can only be loosely 'implied' that Benteen was to go to Custer's Bn.... There sure is a lot of stuff being hinged on that vague implication--all that business that 'Custer waited in vain for Benteen to save his butt' etc. etc. etc.
....when there really isn't anything concrete that said Benteen was even supposed to go to Custer in the first place--just come up and get into the fray.

I'm confused.

[mcaryf]

I find it interesting that nobody (not even the most pro-Custer posters) has suggested that perhaps Benteen ought to have renewed the attack on the village. With hindsight that might have been the best support he could provide to Custer and possibly the only thing that could have made any difference. By this I mean to suggest that Reno's force is left to consolidate its position on the bluffs and await the arrival of the pack train whilst Benteen makes at least a feint towards the village.

If Benteen had set off within, say, 10 - 15 minutes of joining Reno, the appearance of a 120 odd troopers on Weir Point would probably have had minimal impact on the progress of the Custer fight. However, some form of renewed attack or threat to the village, which can be achieved much quicker than reaching actual supporting range of Custer, might well have had a similar impact to Custer's initial appearance at MTC Ford.

Benteen could also rationalise his orders re the pack train in that he would be keeping himself still between it and the village and, unlike Reno first time through, he would have some knowledge of a place to which he might withdraw if things turn ugly.

Given that Benteen had already seen the scale of the opposition, it would have taken a very bold commander to move in that direction.

Regards

Mike

[Gumby]

Mike,
You are quite correct. In hindsight I think he even wished he had done something of that sort. I believe he never thought he he could break through to Custer but that he might have been able to draw some of the warriors away from him. That is what I feel caused most of his bitterness in later years. If you can find a copy of the book "Camp Talk: The Very Private Letters of Frederick Benteen", you will see that while he didn't like Custer very much before the battle, he grew to hate Custer afterwards. He barely mentioned Custer in letters to his wife prior to the battle, in the months and years following the battle he mentions him more and more.

I believe he would have gone to Custer's support if he had known that those five companies were going to perish. He would have found a way to at least take some of the pressure off of those companies. That is why I believe that the misinformation that Kanipe and Martin began, however unknowingkly, helped cause the disaster.

[fred]

I do not agree w/ a lot of what I have read on this thread.

First of all, I FIRMLY believe Custer sent Reno to attack the village, not some 40 or 50 warriors running hither & yon. To me, that makes no sense. I attack the warriors, I kill them or they scatter... then what? Relax? Does this make any sense? What DOES make sense to me, is that Reno blasts down the valley, trumpets blaring & either runs into the village or drags enough Indians OUT of the village to tie down the load of the warriors. Remember, when Custer issued his orders to Reno, no one yet had any earthly idea of the size of what they were taking on. They saw a chimp, they met a gorilla.

Next, why the hell would Custer send a note, "Come quick, bring packs," if he wanted Benteen to assist Reno? Wouldn't it make more sense to write, "Help Reno, bring packs"? Custer meant for Benteen to come to CUSTER'S aid because Custer wanted the additional men w/ the packs. He didn't need the ammo; he hadn't fired a shot! Indians were to Custer, in all likelihood running. He wanted the men so he could round 'em up, kill 'em, or do whatever else he might have wanted a semi-unified command to do.

Custer knew Benteen had completed his scout, & I do not believe Custer EVER ordered Benteen into the valley. Benteen followed the two trails-- Custer's & Reno's-- to where Custer veered to the left, probably NO MORE THAN 1/4 TO 1/2 MILE FROM FORD A. Custer knew where Benteen was because he could see the dust plumes of both Benteen & the packs & probably because Boston Custer-- by that time-- had already told him Benteen was back on the main trail. The "dust plume" theory lends great credence to Bruce Liddic's theory of Custer viewing the valley from Sharpshooters' Ridge rather than Weir Peaks.

After spending 2 days at the battlefield, I believe Liddic makes a very good argument there. I made a point of walking that route & while I am still not totally convinced... WOW!

Anyway, to continue to parse this note business, seems to me to be a bit ephemeral. It is what it is: come to ME, baby, not Marcus. He's doing what he should be doing (HA!), & I think that reading anything more into it than that is a mistake.

Best wishes,
Fred.

P.S.-- I thoroughly agree w/ Gumby about these conspiracy theories. There may have been some "white lies" to help keep the tarnish off some reputations, but nothing more than that. I have said it before, so I will use the same stupidity, when you have more than 2 people in a conspiracy, it is called a frat party.
FCW

[dogsoldier]

First off, this is probably the best line I've ever read about the battle:

They saw a chimp, they met a gorilla.

Okay, now back to business. I think that in life, people do the best they can in a given situation based on their ability. It is my contention that Benteen would have done more if he thought he could have AND knew Custer was in such serious trouble. Reno would have done more if he had the confidence in his troops (and to some degree, in himself). He knew that his men were not up to the task to literally charge into that village. Being that he had perhaps 140 men total, what would have happened once they started taking casualties? Well, his tiny force stood the chance of being reduced to the point that they would have been helpless. It happened anyway, but one can argue that Reno was going to be defeated one way or the other, and in this case it was "the other."

I just feel that the deck was stacked against them DUE TO each battalion being too small to fight effectively. Above average troops, perhaps, but the Seventh was not such a group. If they were, the results would have been different. In this particular battle, the best tactic might have been to keep all the troops together and attack via Reno's initial route down the valley. The way it turned out, it was like small hands trying to grasp an object too big. (Okay, not as good as the chimp/gorilla comment, but you try following that!)

[Lawtonka]

I have not followed this thread completely, but I liked your parody of the chimp and the gorilla

It made me begin to think about the fighting force of the 7th at the time. A lot of green troops many without combat experience. With the exception of the little fight on the Yellowstone Expedition and the vacation-like atmosphere of the Black HIlls Expedition a bunch of these guys had only fired their weapons while hunting or in some cases at each other.

There were those who had seen the Elephant as Civil War Vets, but not enough to go around. The regiment was in a desperate situation. Custer of course had the worst situation, too far away from the rest of the command, no reserve ammunition, overwhelming odds. Without re-enforcements and resupply given the situation on the field, even if they could have held their lines a little while longer, I feel sure the result would have been the same.

This history was almost repeated with Colonel Moore in South Vietnam when the 7th landed in a hotbed of a whole North Vietnamese Division. His outstanding military leadership and discipline of his troops would have seen the same fate had it not have been for Close Air Support and resupply drops.

[mcaryf]

Hi Fred

I am not sure that I have fully understood your post in that you seem to be associating the arrival of Boston Custer with Custer's intentions concerning his message to Benteen but the arrival took place after that message had been dispatched. Perhaps you meant that Custer's subsequent actions were based on his view of Benteen's imminent arrival. However, I cannot agree with that either because, unless Custer thought that Reno had been destroyed, Benteen would inevitably go to where he saw fighting as he could not know whether that fight was Custer or Reno even if he interepreted the order to definitely mean go to Custer and ignore Reno.

You also suggest that nobody knew the scale of what they were up against, this is not strictly correct because Custer's scouts had clearly told him that the number of Indians was very large although I do agree that the aggressiveness of the Indians was not expected (actually Chimps can be aggressive too!).

Finally your interpretation of the Bring Packs message as being Custer wanting the men not the Packs would suggest a different message to the effect of hide the packs somewhere and bring McDougall's company. What actually happened was that Benteen did wait to bring the Packs, as per your interpretation. That plainly took too long for the situation as it actually evolved but even if most of Custer's command had somehow been reunitied at LSH without too much Indian interference, it would probably have been after 7pm and that was almost certainly too late to achieve anything decisive versus the village content or the non-coms before nightfall.

To me the biggest mystery of the whole LBH saga is just what Custer thought he was trying to achieve by waiting in the vicinity of Battle Ridge. The logical action was to move back towards Weir Point to determine what is happening with Benteen, the train and Reno. It is not as if Custer's force was in a position to prevent Indian infiltration so what is the benefit of being where they were?

Regards

Mike

[fred]

Mcaryf--

I have been traveling (actually, this is my 28th day away from home) so I have limited access to my notes & I have only cursorily read much of the stuff posted on this board. If I come across a bit scattered, please excuse me.

Here is my point about Custer & Benteen. First of all, you can be told by ANYONE that the village is bigger than expected, but until you confront that "gorilla" you may still believe it to be only the "chimp." I believe Custer expected to meet about 1,500 Indians, max. He may or may not have realized he was into something bigger. Custer was never concerned about this until it was too late, otherwise he would not have kept heading north. His escape route south was open-- albeit, w/ some fighting to do-- for quite some time, at least until he left Keogh behind & moved even farther north. Custer never recognized the danger until it was too late. You may chalk that up to hubris AND to the brilliance of the Indians' fighting method.

Make no mistake about this note business. I am absolutely convinced Custer wanted those men as opposed to the packs in general & the additional ammo. The ammo was secondary; he hadn't, as yet, fired a shot. As for the "protection" of the mules & packers, he couldn't have cared less. That would have taken care of itself, providing his plans worked out. It was the same attitude he took w/ Reno. Reno was sent down the valley to do a job: tie up as many Indians as possible; keep them busy; raise all sorts of hell. Reno's mission was no feint, no diversion; it was a good old blasting attack. And Reno-- right or wrong-- could take care of himself. There was no altruism in Custer, no pity, no excuses. Go down the valley & do your job. I-- Custer-- will do the rest.

What Custer DID NOT figure on was, (1) the fact it would take Benteen too long to bring the "packs" (remember, I believe Custer saw the dust plumes of both columns when he was on the heights of Sharpshooters' or Weir Peak, & they were fairly close together [see Liddic & Blummer]); & (2) that Benteen would run into a beaten Reno-command, thereby forcing the good captain to make THAT decision.

I also believe-- very, very strongly-- that Benteen agonized over this decision AFTER the battle, thereby explaining much of his post-battle behavior & commentary. Fred Benteen was the consummate soldier; I only wish I had 25% of his guts, brains, & common sense during the 10 years I spent in the army.

Your Boston Custer/ "note" scenario is probably correct, so I apologize for that particular faux-pas, & your battle-timing rationale is excellent. I have not addressed many or even any of your posts before, but your knowledge is superb. All I ask you to do-- & I try VERY hard to do this as well-- is apply good old common sense to these scenarios, don't make anything TOO complicated, & place yourself in each participant's shirt when thinking about actions & decisions. You apparently seem to be doing this, so I applaud you for the effort. Nice job.

Also, & this is for everyone: I don't put too much stock in the regiment's fighting ability or lack thereof. One way or the other, Custer was bringing them to battle. It wasn't that they couldn't shoot or couldn't ride; these guys got whipped simply because they were overwhelmed by numbers & very, very clever fighters. However that may break down (division of command, etc, etc, etc), that was the bottom line.

That old high school joke says it all: "Where'd all them f-----g Indians come from?"

Best wishes & I'll be home next week.
Fred.

[shatonska]

fred i agree in toto

i'm not harsh , i try to be as clear as possible whit my poor english
i don't love-hate anyone , j just want to know what happened , i think reno made a mistake leaving the wood because he was going toward a sudden death ( faith helped him but not tens of his soldiers) and i think benteen could be a bit faster before meeting Martini , having the same pace of the mule train for about two hours is to slow during a battle (probably Benteen later realized this mistake too), i can be wrong but in this moment that's the way i think and anyway i'm not so interested in who made errors but in what happened , here has become above all a pro-anti one or the other , not so interesting , better analize time accounts and terrain

ot , wood on the fire
did Custer decided not tho cross the ford because a scout (Bouyer) told him that reno was retreating east of the river ? Boston had just arrived telling Bnteen was on the trail Reno was on the trail too maybe Custer decided to wait for the whole outfit now he has realized that the village is bigger than espected , if the volley heard on reno hill were on luce-nye ridges ( as i think) is it possible that Custer was aware of reno having retreated and beeing on the same side of the river