Benteens orders

[Jas. Watson]

Hmmm, I kind of agree with Fred on a couple of things, but have trouble with others (which is of course why we have a discussion forum in the first place). I don't believe Custer's intent was to have Benteen stick to Reno particularly, but I also don't think that the Benteen note meant for the captain to report to Custer personally either. It all depends how one means 'Come quick'. Is it 'come (to me)' or is it 'come (on)'? It can be taken either way. I would have interpreted it in the latter mode, another might interpret it in the former. Which way did Benteen interpret it? Which way did Cooke write it? Which way did Custer (presumably) utter it? And which way did he mean it?
I like the interesting theory that 'bring packs' means the men guarding it rather than the material itself. It does make sense. But then again, why didn't the note say so? Saying 'Bring B Company' or something to that effect? Or more so, why not send the message directly to Capt. McDougal?
No, I don't think it meant for Benteen to bring men....but then again, it's all a matter of interpreting it. Fred sees each part of the note just the opposite from how I would have. But that gets us back to how did Benteen see it? How did Cooke mean it? etc. etc. etc.
See what I mean?

[crzhrs]

And why in the world send someone who had difficulty with English who stated he had no idea what was in the note???

Maybe if it was a oral order being carried by an English-speaking person who had a grasp of military tactics and what was going on it would have solved the many "interpretations" of the Come Quick note!

And why would Custer think Benteen should stick with Reno. The written note/order was addressed to Benteen. Custer would have to assume that Benteen had no idea of Reno's position and was not even close to Reno.

Do we assume that Benteen told the truth about valley hunting and "keep going till you find something" which would explain Custer believing Benteen was not in the vicinity of Reno?

[Gumby]

The problems with the note were that it was non-specific and contadictory. I don't think he was asking for just the men or just the ammo. He obviously had no need for the ammo at the time he sent for the packs. I don't think he expected Benteen to join Reno either.

However, if he wanted Benteen to join him quickly he should have said so, without the pack train non-sense. Custer should have sent a seperate courier to the pack train with orders for them to follow the courier back to his own location or one pointed out to the courier before he left. The confusion caused by the lack of specificity helped seal his doom.

[crzhrs]

The Custers did send two messengers:

Kanipe for the pack train (and IF you see Benteen tell him to)

Martini to Benteen for the packs

Maybe Benteen knew the orders (note) were ambiguous at best and decided to save it for "future use"

PS: It is odd that Cooke told Martini to come back if it was safe, but Kanipe never mentioned anything about going back to Custer, even though Kanipe left earlier.

[Jas. Watson]

Well, I reiterate here; but because the note was so unspecific, I still do think that the note was only for Benteen to drop what he was doing and come up and just get into the fight, as they found a big village--and get the packs coming up too. The 'bring packs' was reiterated so it must have been important. I feel that while Custer (and everyone else) didn't need the ammo yet, he knew they were going to very soon. So let's get the pack up here soonest.

As for Kanipe's so-called message. I'd hate to say it, but since the short time I have been here I have read enough by you folks who know more than I to where I am really, really beginning to think that Sergt. Kanipe is a little more (less) than meets the eye. I think after seeing things and realizing what they were in for he used some flimsy remark by Tom to take a hike. Figureing he'll worry about the repercussions later (as it was, there was no later because the key players didn't survive).
I have myself been in the army many years and I cannot tell how many times soldiers (myself included) have used the 'they told me to...' (whoever 'they' were ever supposed to be) to get over on something--as we used to say; 'It is easier to beg forgiveness than get permission'. And I can't say that if I had seen that village and knew some of the things Kanipe might have known then, that I would not have pulled a fast one too--hell, enough others of C company did that day.
So we don't have a 'real' messenger to the pack train that day.

Jas.

[fred]

Jim (Watson)--

I would like you to put yourself in Benteen's position for a moment. (You say you have been in the army for many years, so this should be a fairly easy exercise.) You receive this note (forget who the messenger is). Why, for even a split second, would you entertain the thought that this note meant for you to report to Reno? Gumby is correct; the note is contradictory: "come quick"; "bring packs." It's an oxymoron, right? But wait a second. If Custer saw the dust plumes when he was on top of-- for argument's sake, let's say-- Sharpshooters' Ridge & he realized the 2 columns-- McDougall's & Benteen's were fairly close together, then maybe the note isn't[/b] so contradictory after all.

If I was Benteen, there would have been no question: I head for Custer. And that's why Benteen chose Custer's trail when he approached Ford A, & not Reno's trail.

As for the "men" versus the "ammo" or the "hardtack" (sorry, I am being a bit facetious there), ask yourself this: why would Custer want the packs? He had not fired a single shot up to then, so he wasn't short on ammo... yet. I doubt he was planning-- at that stage of the fracas-- to do much dismounted fighting, so he wouldn't need additional carbine ammo, right? I mean, you cannot be charging up the valley or gathering in the miscreants, all the while trying to load your rifle while atop your horse...! So I doubt seriously he wanted those packs for the ammo; it doesn't fit into what I believe his plan was: gathering the refugees or charging up the valley. What else-- of value-- would there be w/ the packs that would require the emphasis placed in the note? Men!

Like I wrote in some other post, somewhere, maybe even on this thread (sorry, Jim, I'm tired after driving 750 miles today & just getting home), I don't know where, but this was no time for altruism, if Custer was even of that mind. He wasn't sending for the packs to sequester them from harm. Men, troopers. McDougall's command, with Mathey's men, totaled some 25% of the regiment. That's a big number, especially when Custer was suspecting the bee's nest was more like a buzz saw. The man had guts; I'll give him that!

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Jas. Watson]

Fred, Whoa, I never inferred that Benteen ever thought he should necessarily go to Reno in the valley! No, just come up into the vicinity of the village/battle. I think the message was primarily an effort to reconsolidate his forces that Custer by then realized he had scattered too much and too far (his fatal flaw).
If I were Benteen, I would assume that I should send someone to hurry along the packs and drive on...which is following the trail left by Custer. I would be expecting either another courier giving me more detailed further orders, or to find an obvious place and opportunity to 'pitch in'.
Neither happened. Instead he found a shattered portion of the command in dire straits. Not recieving any further orders from command, but realizing that the encountered Bn is in a desperate situation, and finding out how bad the Indian situation really is from Reno, he is faced with a decision. One or the other Bns is most lilely going to get wiped out. Which does he help?
Custer's is the stronger--and he still does not know how far ahead it is. They may be able to ride on and break free. (let us suppose Custer managed to break free by riding north as was suggested elsewhere in this forum. Where would Benteen have been then had he gone? Where would Reno be?)
Reno's is here and now. He must help one at the expense of the other--he couldn't have it both ways.
I firmly believe that had Benteen ridden on, most likely the entire regiment would have been wiped out piecemeal.

Jas.

[custerstillstands]

There wasn't any Indian threat around Reno - see the RCOI testimonies

Reno wasn't under attack on Reno Hill. He was alone on his hill with his command and shots were heard in the valley - it was Custer.

What did Reno do ? What did Benteen do ? Reno went in the woods to look for lieutenant Hodgson's body. Benteen stayed on the hill.

They didn't do anything. They heard the vollies, heard the shots, knew that a battle was going on, knew that Custer was engaged, knew that he was under attack, knew that he had only 1/3 of the regiment with him and... Reno and Benteen stayed on their hill.

Wesley Merritt, the man responsible for the Reno Court of Inquiry, said when it ended : "We have white-washed Reno"

[fred]

Jim (Watson)--

Sorry! I mis-read you. And I do agree w/ your assessment about Benteen on Reno Hill. I also feel very strongly that had Benteen moved on, we would be talking today about how stupid he was to have moved into the teeth of the tiger.

Remember something else, however, regarding Reno, Benteen, their officers & their views about Custer when they arrived on Reno Hill. A good deal of the volley firing heard by Benteen's command as it moved along Reno Creek was interpreted to mean Custer might have been having a jolly old time of it down there as opposed to a jolly HOT time of it. Firing like that heard had been encountered a number of times before & the results were always interpreted the same way. In addition, both Kanipe & Martini had left the impression that Custer was chasing Indians all over God's little acres.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Gumby]

Benteen chose to move north instead of crossing the river because one of the Indian scouts motioned him in that direction. I think I remember that he had pulled his pistol and was preparing to cross the river until he was motioned toward the bluffs.

The problem with Fred's assumption that Custer only wanted the men and not the packs was that he asked for the packs twice, he never asked for the men. It would have been just as easy to ask for the men if that was what he wanted. It is moot anyway because we have to remember that Benteen only had a small amount of information available to him at the time, most of it turned out to be incorrect. Benteen can't be expected to know that Custer didn't really want what he had asked for! Custer didn't even know that he was in trouble when he sent for Benteen and the packs.

I also find it hard to believe that Custer was afraid to charge into that village with five companies when he had already sent three to do it from the other side. It wasn't in his makeup to be afraid to try the impossible. He had more guts than was healthy for him.

I really think Martin was correct in his assumption that Custer wanted Benteen to attack at MT Ford, unfortunately he failed to convey the order to Benteen.

[fred]

gumby said:

The problem with Fred's assumption that Custer only wanted the men and not the packs was that he asked for the packs twice, he never asked for the men. It would have been just as easy to ask for the men if that was what he wanted.

Gumby--

I do not find that a problem at all. What would you have Cooke write, "Hurry, be quick... bring the additional men, forget the packs"? You can't see or hear Custer saying to Cooke, "Bill, we are going to need those additional men. Tell Benteen to bring the packs w/ him"? Boy, I can! Again, why bother w/ the packs at all if you didn't want the men? You had plenty of ammo & you were hunting fugitives! Even if you don't believe that to be the goal & you feel Custer was going to charge the village once across Ford D, he had 100 rounds of carbine ammo per man. What was he going to do w/ all that ammunition charging down the valley? Nothing else makes sense & when you are confronted w/ an enigma like the LBH where you seek answers to so many riddles, the best way to approach it is from a viewpoint of common sense. At least that is what I try to do.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[stevewilk]

Actually, it was Cooke who asked for the packs twice in his note, not Custer. Had Cooke only asked once, in his post script, the message comes across as a "by the way, bring the packs" (which are secondary to the men). But he mentions the packs twice, which may have confused Benteen to the point where he thinks the packs have priority. Custer has to know the pack train has been a royal pain in the rump all campaign; those mules, mostly wagon mules, are not going to "be quick". Not for the inexperienced trooper/packers. This wasn't Crook's outfit, after all.

How about Cooke writing "Big fight-Reno engaged" instead of "big village"? This tells Benteen there is a battle in progress; leaving no assumption of a fleeing village. He could have asked for B Co. to join Benteen; giving his force four companies. The pack train would still have over fifty men to protect it and move it along quick as could be done. Plus thousands of rounds of ammo if attacked.

I agree with Fred that Custer wanted the men; it makes sense. But if one interprets that message literally, Benteen, and Benteen alone could have reported to Custer dragging the packs. He would have obeyed the order to the letter. Of course we know "Benteen" meant his battalion. My point is there is a certain measure of common sense interpretation; possibly Benteen misinterpreted.

[markland]

Bob, Fred, am I missing something here? GAC was afraid at Washita of losing his supply train. What gives with the assumption that he would pull the security from his supplies at a distance even closer to the enemy than the train was at Washita? The way I see it, the pack train and men were a package deal. You couldn't get only one.

Just my two-bits worth.

Be good,

Billy

[Gumby]

Billy,
I agree with you. They were a package deal. There was no way they could have left the pack train. Even with all of the men assigned to the pack train plus the shirkers and those whose horses fell out, they still had trouble controlling the pack mules. If Custer had wanted more men he should have asked for McDougall's company not the packs. I think Custer was concerned with the saftey of the pack train and wanted it brought safely to where the majority of the command was to be. Maybe Custer was afraid that Mathey would see Reno's command and lead the pack train across the river. Ironically he loses both the pack train and Benteen to Reno's command.

I still think he planned to use Benteen's bttn to attack at MT Ford and he himself would take the other five companies to continue around to attack the north end of the village. When Benteen didn't show up quick enough he left Keogh behind to hold the warriors in check while he attempted to move around to the north with just two companies. We don't know what Keogh's exact orders were either. He may have been told to hold the area until Benteen showed up and then to follow Custer or to help Benteen attack in the center. We shall never know that answer.

Fred,
Your theory is not a bad one, I just can't get on board with it.

Best wishes,
Bob

[fred]

Steve--

I realize it was Cooke who wrote the note; I use "Custer" as a general term. Sorry. And I agree w/ you regarding the packs. The note was obviously written in haste & as we all know, especially if Custer is telling Cooke what he wants-- NOT specifically what to write-- that haste made the note the controversial object we are debating here.

Bob--

One of these days you & I are going to agree on something-- other than your magnificent Reno/ withdrawal/ covering force description. I simply do not buy any attack scenario at Ford B, Benteen or otherwise. It is my opinion that Custer went to Ford B w/ his HQ command & Yates' 2-company battalion. He left Keogh back on the ridges to protect his rear. He didn't need 3 companies of cavalry-- 63.8% of his command-- to tell Benteen to attack at Ford B. The only way a Benteen attack at MTC ford makes any sense is if you believe Bruce Liddic's theory of Keogh securing the ford. The way I rate some of these books that pop up nowadays, is, are they consistent, throughout? Liddic's isn't, despite the LBHA's love-affair w/ him.

Also, if Custer intended to take his 5 companies & attack the village's north end (I would not disagree w/ the objective, it's the execution I have a problem w/), why would he string out Keogh, then wait along Cemetery Ridge rather than ordering Keogh farther north or coming back to Keogh to bring the captain's battalion farther north (too difficult a maneuver)? It doesn't make any sense. And why would Keogh be sitting atop Calhoun Hill in order to tell Benteen to attack at Ford B?

Bob-- please don't take this the wrong way (I have a serious shortcoming because I tend to pontificate too much), but your work is entirely too good & too thoughtful for that theory.

Now, my Kansan friend, the guy in the state w/ the tornado, the hail storm, & the dust storm!!!! Do you really believe Custer was concerned w/ the safety of the pack train when he had the entire Sioux & Cheyenne nations at his beck & call? If he drew the packs to him, consolidating his command-- now think of this: Keogh's battalion (3 companies), Yates' battalion (2 companies), Benteen's battalion (3 companies), McDougall (1 company), & Mathey (maybe 84 additional men; 7 x 12 = 84, better known as 2 more companies)-- he could charge or attack or whatever you want to call it, sweeping everything before him. Why would he be concerned about the safety of the packs when he has all the hostiles in his front, running hither & yon? At that point, why would ANYONE be concerned about the safety of the packs?

This wasn't the Washita & I think that by the time Custer ordered the packs forward, he realized the village was one consolidated mass, not a strung out party-central like the Washita.

Incidentally, that damned tornado warning & its attendant hail storm ruined my trip to the National Tallgrass Prairie.

Best wishes,
Fred.