Benteens orders

[rch]

I think Custer wanted Benteen to join Reno in the valley of the Little Big Horn, and I believe he wanted to strike at the village from two points.

I think he knew about where Benteen was by observing Benteen's dust, and therefore a messenger sent back along the trail would find Benteen. If Custer wanted Benteen or anyone else to come directly to him, he should have sent his adjutant to bring Benteen to him, and I think he would have done so. That was one of the things an adjutant existed for. Martin's message may not have said "go to Reno," but it didn't say "come to me wherever I am."

With the message on its way, Custer then moved off to attack the village. Custer expected to be in the valley himself. That's where the village was. That he ran into a sort of meeting engagement on his side of the river was not contemplated. I don't believe Custer ever looked toward Weir Point for help. If he was hoping for anything, it may have been to see six companies of the 7th charging through the village.

As for Benteen, he did not follow Custer's trail. Benteen, who was well ahead of his battalion, went to the sound of the guns; he went to the river and observed the last moments of the retreat from the valley. Had Reno still been holding out in the valley, I think it's possible Benteen would have gone to him.

rch

[pjsolla]

Not sure exactly where I read it, but it said, "it would have taken Benteen at least an hour to get to Reno on the valley floor from Reno Hill".

[elisabeth]

Benteen says: "from the ford where Reno first crossed the beautifully blue Little Big Horn we saw going on what was evidently not 'skedaddling' on the part of the indians, as there were 12 or 14 dismounted men on the river bottom, and they were being ridden down and shot by 800 or 900 indian warriors". [Benteen's first battle narrative, Benteen-Goldin Letters p. 170.] So he's actually at Ford A when he sees the tail-end of Reno's retreat.

rch, that's a most interesting point: that "Custer expected to be in the valley himself". Of course! That makes so much sense. So "Come on. Big village" is, as I think Jas. (?) said earlier, simply "Benteen, we've found the village, you can stop looking; come along and pitch in wherever you can". Which would almost certainly have been with Reno if Reno had still been holding out, as he'd hardly have by-passed a battle-in-progress on the off-chance that he'd find something more useful to do elsewhere ...

[fred]

rch--

I am afraid that except for your comment that Custer wanted to attack the village from 2 points, I disagree w/ virtually everything you have written in your last post. I think you are falling into the trap that so many others fall into, & that is by making this thing way too complicated. I also disagree w/ your perception of the role of the adjutant. An adjutant is NOT a messenger; neither is a first sergeant; neither is a sergeant major, though we DID see Custer use Sharrow in that role, didn't we? Of course, it was prior to the battle itself, & the distance covered was very short. Actually, what we know of the written message business more fittingly describes the adjutant's role: he wrote; an orderly rode. Liddic fell into the same trap w/ his interpretation of the "4 riders" scenario when he claimed Custer sent 1SG Butler back as a messenger. Why would Calhoun allow that? The stripes are on the sleeve for a reason & that is NOT as a delivery boy. The same w/ Cooke.

I simply cannot fathom why there is so much debate & so much uncertainly about something that appears so clear: this note. Custer wanted Benteen & the packs. Pure & simple. If he wanted Benteen to support Reno, Cooke would have written, "Come quick; support Reno." Custer wanted the packs, i.e., the men w/ the packs. He didn't specify "men" because he didn't want to leave the packs, per se, high & dry. Once everything was w/ him, Custer could sequester the vulnerable "packs," maybe even in Keogh's swale (though he didn't know it at the time), then use the men to effect the 2nd attack (as you said). The fact that Custer emphasized "bring the packs" indicates to me Custer had no idea he was or would be in trouble. He KNEW the difficulty his men were having w/ the damn mules; Benteen told him that a few days prior. If Custer had Cooke write "men" instead of packs, what do you think Benteen would have done? I think Benteen would have dropped those mules like a hot potato!

Here is my logic on Custer's strategy: he had Reno at the south end of the village, keeping the Indians occupied. He did not know-- at least until later in the fracas, if at all!, that Reno was in trouble. Regardless, he couldn't have cared less. Reno was doing what Custer wanted: keep those damn Indians busy! With Benteen's added men, w/ McDougall's company, & w/ Mathey's 7 x 12 command, Custer figured he had enough fire-power to do whatever he wanted to do, i.e., gather fugitives, attack the village from the north, & even send a messenger to Terry, who was supposed to be approaching the valley. Has anyone ever thought of THAT?

Sorry to take it out on you, rch. You're a very knowledgable guy, but I'm blue in the face w/ this particular thread. I just do not know how else to couch my thoughts. Thanks for your chin. Like I said, you're a great guy.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

Risking Fred's wrath -- and, almost as bad, risking re-opening the "can we believe Martini?" question -- here's one consideration that might throw some light on what Custer intended ...

According to Martini, Cooke tells him to come back if it's safe, but otherwise to "stay with your company". If true (big if) this would seem to imply that Cooke isn't necessarily expecting Benteen to join Custer. If he were, it'd make more sense for him either to tell Martini to guide Benteen back, or to "come back alone if there's no danger; otherwise, come back with your company". And yes, I know, a) Martini's dodgy English, b) Martini's conflicting stories, and c) the benefit to Martini, later, of an excuse for having stayed with Benteen's battalion ... but it's one possible clue, and we've got precious few of those!

[crzhrs]

Elisabeth: very interesting . . .

Martini (RCOI):

"He (Cooke) also told me if I had time and there was no danger in coming back to do so, but if there was danger or there were any Indians in the way, not to come back, but to remain with my company. My company was with Capt. Benteen, and report to him when I came down there."

"Remain with my company" which was Benteen seems to indicate that yes, Cooke/Custer did not intend for Benteen to come to Custer . . . but it could possibly mean just to return from his scout and pitch in to anything on his way back, which could include Reno OR Custer or any Indians he came upon.

Again, the orders are vague as to who or where Benteen was to "come quick" to.

[shatonska]

yes , good point , but it can also indicate that Custer inteded Benteen to attack at mt ford not to unite forces with him , surely indicates Custer was still thinking offensively

[Tricia]

Elisabeth--

You bring up an interesting point ... there is a certain amount of quasi-individualism attached to Martini's words (" ... if I had time"), if we can believe the fellow for all of the reasons you noted above. But you've got me thinking just when (sorry) Fred had me calming down! Why doesn't this get any easier?

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[crzhrs]

Again, we have to go by Martini and what he stated. We know his ability to speak/understand English is an issue, and some of his testimony is all over the place . . . but again it just shows that we have to take into account all the contradictions, different scenarios, improbables, maybes, and shake our heads.

Still "remain with your company" opens up possibilities . . .

[fred]

Hey, Elisabeth--

Two Indians here, three Indians there, four Indians somewhere else, present a danger to a lone rider.

And I would never turn the wrath valve on you!

Very best wishes,
Fred.

[elisabeth]

Thanks, Fred!

And that's very true; it might simply have meant "come back with your company" ... It's as unclear as everything else, alas.

[Gumby]

Fred,
I agree that Keogh was left behind to protect Custer's rear. What I was trying to say was that he could also have had further instructions for Benteen as well. Maybe Custer figured that if Benteen showed up in MTC he would see Keogh's men fighting and would obviously start pitching into the Indians himself. The problem with your theory is that he (Custer) just kept moving off to the north. Custer didn't wait for the men you have him wanting so bad. So leaving Keogh behind serves both purposes, protecting his rear and leaving behind someone with further instructions for Benteen, which would be "to pitch in to the Indians here."

I like Bruce Lidic but I haven't read his book yet. I don't believe that Butler was a messenger either. I think he was killed during the skirmish in MTC. No time to haul around corpses with an expected attack coming up. They could retrieve it later. The cartridges under and around him were his and his men's. The rediculous account of his hand to hand fight with a warrior is negated by the one that had him holding off warriors until they surrounded him and shot him from behind. The heroic accounts sound great and the natural tendency is for us to believe them. However, we only have two conflicting accounts of this brave last stand and we have several that tell of one soldier being killed during the skirmish in MTC. The only other confirmed body in the area was Foley's, who we have several accounts that confirm (generally) his death. Sgt Bustard's body was ID'd in two places, the ford and by Keogh. I have only seen one account of any body being found at the ford. I would think there would have been more accounts by enlisted men of that sort if there had been any more bodies found in that area, so much for Nightengale's theory of the hot fight there. The Indians would have had to call for a disposal team from the CIA.

Anyway back to the packs question. The packs have the reserve ammunition, about 25,000 rounds. It must be protected and placed in an area where the majority of the command can get at it when needed. It then makes sense that it should be located where Custer is (the general proximity), if he is expecting Benteen to come to him. He can then use the rear guard and some of the men assigned to escort it as a fighting force. But he is not expecting Benteen to just bring the men. There were no battle lines that would give the pack train protection from an enemy that rode wherever they wanted to. 10-20 warriors would have made controlling that pack train a nightmare for even the 84 plus soldiers that were supposed to be escorting it, which explains Co. B's rear guard job. They were to keep the warriors at bay, not the escort, who would already have their hands full keeping the mules together.

[fred]

Bob--

I'll take your last post paragraph by paragraph if it is OK w/ you.

Paragraph 1: Yes, I would go along w/ you about that. I would not argue the point; it is entirely possible and plausible.

FCW

[fred]

Paragraph 2: Obviously, I would disagree-- partially-- w/ you here. Butler being killed at Ford B would mean Calhoun was there, which would mean Keogh was there. In one of the very few instances I would ever say this about ANYTHING relating to the LBH battle, I would categorically reject the argument that Keogh & Calhoun were at Ford B.

Butler's body being there fits Fox' idea of the "4 getaways." I would have no problem agreeing w/ you that Butler's demise occurred under less than Wotan-inspired heroics.

FCW

[fred]

Paragraph 3: I would not belabor your line of reasoning now. Custer would protect the packs, there's no doubt about that, but it would be secondary. And he would want them w/ him because he felt he was in full control.

We are coming closer together.

FCW