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Post by herosrest on Dec 11, 2023 7:27:40 GMT -6
Letter to Mrs. Custer from...... Fred Whittaker. Tuesday Nov 28/76
Dear Mrs. Custer,
Do you remember I said that I felt I should come on Col. Weir before it was too late. I have just done it at last and by a chance almost so ludicrous in its simplicity when I think of the anxiety with which we have both searched for him.....
..... Reno is also in New York, on a leave. I do not know how long it is, but I doubt not that I shall see him pretty soon.
...
Yours sincerely
Frederick Whittaker
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Post by herosrest on Dec 11, 2023 9:23:14 GMT -6
I'm checking your quotes in the rolling commentary given to suppose that your highest hill is the highest hill and also where Benteen thinks he went at which time he telling his tellings. Remember of course that Benteen was frangible with his information as circumstances affected his import. He seems to have realised that what was in 1876 wasn't good enough in late 1878 and made that known to his bad of brothers before and during the trip to Chicago which was reasonably well reported in press, and by aquintances met along the way. Of course, there had been the huge bust up during Xmas celebrations which left French gloating and Benteen in the brig, after a minor guns blazing contatemps at the fort. If it had been built then at Standing Rock..... hmmm.... what was it called? Anyway,whilst I conduct my review, I hope THIS will instruct and engage. It's amazing how far we have come. Is it not.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 11, 2023 10:55:52 GMT -6
"This may have been in a sense of loyalty towards Weir given his demise not long after the battle, in New York; which some feel was a poisoning."
herosrest: Many things about the lives of the 7th Cavalrymen keep getting repeated without sources. You are guilty of perpetuating the nonsense about Weir's death. To hint that Reno poisoned him while in New York is beyond crazy.
Weir was not poisoned. He died of delirium tremens caused by withdrawal from alcohol. That was confirmed at the time by Weir's attending physician. There was no poison in his system.
Diane
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Post by herosrest on Dec 11, 2023 12:06:18 GMT -6
Ok, so he died of withdrawl, maybe. In New York, withdrawn from the field with a drinking habit wrecking health, mind and Terry's patience for which there is some substantiating evidence - crazy behaviour and continuing issues with Benteen during the expedition. It is obvious from Whittaker's letter that a degree of concern existed for Weir. There were further addictions prevalent among the ex-ACW fraternity using laudanum and other such treatments. He was 38 years of age and spent. Stopping drinking killed him was the medical opinion. He was not alone in this, French joined him in 1882 given to be through apoplexy. I am perfectly happy hat Reno was briefly in New York at the time. He seems to have returned there after his first CM of March 8, 1877, idle for two years and until after the hearings at Chicago, to be further judged in November 28, 1879; offered the opportunity to resign; and dismissed from service at 1st April 1880. A number of appeals through bills at Senate failed to reinstate him before his unfortunate and truly sad demise. The ability of physicians to detect acts of poisoning during the late 19th Century were limited and basically did not exist. I am quite happy with my conclusion but in respect for this valued board, will take the post down.
Regards.
I have rather removed the offending word from the text whilst considering how to re-draft a less upsetting post.
In justice to Capt. Thomas H. French, I should mention his August, 1878, head trauma, inflicted by a horse’s hoof. He was Courtmartialed on January 13, 1879, for being drunk on duty and severed from service with sentence commuted to suspension on half pay for one year. Placed on the retired list, February 5, 1880; he died at Leavenworth, Kansas, March 27, 1882, age 39.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 11, 2023 12:51:15 GMT -6
The DT's are a severe type of withdrawal from alcohol that can cause life-threatening complications such as heart attack, stroke, and death. It usually starts about 2 to 3 days after someone who's dependent on alcohol ends a long drinking binge.
It is important to rule out other toxic agents, or associated problems, such as electrolyte abnormalities, pancreatitis, and alcoholic hepatitis; relative to the symtoms of nightmares, agitation, global confusion, disorientation, visual and auditory hallucinations, tactile hallucinations, fever, high blood pressure, heavy sweating, and other signs of autonomic hyperactivity (fast heart rate and high blood pressure). Symptoms can appear suddenly but typically develop two to three days after the stopping heavy drinking.
It was discovered in 1950, that fast-responding GABA receptors are members of a superfamily including nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, GABAA receptors, glycine and 5-HT3 receptors integral to the mammalian central nervous system.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 11, 2023 12:56:21 GMT -6
The Indians saw me about the time I saw them, and checked their pursuit. Four or five hundred came to the highest point of land there; they were nearly a mile away. There were about nine hundred circling around in the river bottom. __________________________________________________________________________________________________ Capt. Benteen with H. D. &. K. Troops soon came up, and soon after, Capt. McDougall with B Troop guarding the pack train. We waited for some time to hear from Custer. Instead of coming to our support, he had taken C. E. F. I &. L Troops and gone ahead. After waiting for some time, Captain Weir was sent to communicate with him. But from the highest bluff, nothing could be seen of him and as the Indians were trying to cut him off, he rejoined us. We now selected a good position and prepared to let them come, and to wait for orders from Custer. The Indians surrounded us and poured in a deadly fire, but we had to lie still and take it. Night came on, We dug rifle pits. We could not move our wounded and had to stay. www.specialbooks.com/letters.htmYou are dealing with one of WMC's mistakes. Plain simple screw up upon which he then started doing measurements. Being able to give bearings distance and elevation on a mistake produces a miss. He did precisely the same with the valley skirmish locations. Brig,. Gen. Benteen's interpretation of events was his own and made his case for the events which unfolded. So there were five hundred Sioux and Cheyenne on your highest point, were there?
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Post by herosrest on Dec 11, 2023 13:42:53 GMT -6
A letter from Pvt. James Rooney (F Co.) to Walter Camp concerning the Little Big Horn Fight dated Jan. 16, 1909.
W.M. Camp
Sir,
Yours of Nov 20 at hand and what I can do is very little as far as I know. I was not with any water party on the 25, nor was any of the men of what was left of F Troop, but there was a party on the night of the 25th. It was led by a Crow Indian. There were about six or seven of us went with him, and I think he was the one that showed the way on the 26.
I hope you are not going to be as one-sided as C.T. Brady. He apparently takes too much for granted from Godfrey. Not that he may have some doubt as to what he wrote. One thing: Reno was not to blame as much as he makes it appear. In my mind, Benteen was for he disobeyed orders in that he went fishing instead of getting to where he was told to go. You have only to ask Edgerly, or Hare when he joined Reno and what he said. I saw him with a large straw hat, and fishing pole over his shoulder, when he rode up after the ammunition mules got to Reno.
That there was very little love lost between Reno and Benteen was very well known in the regiment. As to Reno being drunk, I do not believe it, for I heard him tell the Doctor to take care that nobody got to the medicine chests, and what whiskey he had, he told Davern to throw it out of his canteen. But there is no use, as I can see, for any talk of drunkeness....
Yours truly,
James M. Rooney
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 13, 2023 11:52:00 GMT -6
"Hundred"?? When did he say that?
Benteen, RCOI A. I think the Indians saw me about the time I saw them, and that checked their pursuit. They came around, probably 4 or 5 or more, to the highest point of land there. Maybe they had been there all the time, I don’t know about that. Q. Were they within easy range of the troops, or long range? A. I should say they were nearly a mile away. Q. Were those the nearest Indians to the command there at the time you arrived? A. I saw about 900 Indians when I arrived circling around in the bottom. I stated in my official report I thought there were 900 Indians when I got there.
Ah so Benteen (and WMC) view from Weir's Hill is confirmed! Nice. (whose letter was it?)
What WMC mistake is that? The surveyor is easily confirmed in locating Weir Hill, and his various other references, as given in his map data notes, if that is what you mean. They are on various maps, even google earth...right where he says. Shown on 1891 perfectly. Matches the picture of Martin's Ridge. Matches Godfrey/Camp postcard Hill over-looking DeWolf, and their rocky ridge picture. With all the evidence corroborated, there is really only 1 place it could be - right where the numerous witnesses, maps, and nature - say it is. It IS nice of WMC to confirm and locate what everyone else said/alluded to more exactly. "3411" is not needed, as the actual hill has a name - since c1876/9.
Not sure what else you still need.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 13, 2023 13:51:00 GMT -6
I didn't give the link to source, did I. Sorry. linkAnysways, before it becomes an issue, we know that Benteen was correct about it with De Rudio telling of the hostile exodus up the bluffs, indicated on Patterson Hughes map. Thing is, they were west of Horizon Ridge and went up the bluffs west of it. That's eye-witnesses confirmed by Terry's staff.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 13, 2023 15:06:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the link...so Brininstool put together a story based on 'Benteen's testimony and extracts from his letters'...very interesting. Wonder if he mis-quoted anything else? I wouldn't doubt Benteen that there were a few indians on the high point - Edgerly confirmed various indians - some also at short range, and skirmishes that drove them away. No doubt hostiles moved in various ways downriver against Custer; would make some sense if some also passed Edgerly peaks to get there...did/would those cross the Crows/Boyer moving down/upstream on the bluffs at any point? Of course one would have to wonder how much Benteen or Edgerly might have seen at the Peaks from Reno, since Weir Hill and Martin's Ridge, a bit more then 1/2 mile away, blocked views downriver. Heredeen, RCOI Q. That circular mark is to indicate the position Major Reno took. How far from there can you see the country towards “B”? A. To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.
Edgerly Q. How many Indians were there? A. Four or five at points at short range. Q. What became of them? A. We drove them away in a short time.
There were a few Indians around, behind rocks and the points of the hills, who were shooting into us at that time. A skirmish line was formed and these Indians driven away in a few minutes.
Benteen They came around, probably 4 or 5 or more, to the highest point of land there. Maybe they had been there all the time, I don’t know about that.
The "exodus" is when DeRudio mentions the indians leaving 10minutes after the Benteen column 1st appeared near A? Is part of that the bunny trail across the bluffs from Reno's retreat up? Sure - some moving towards Custer after chasing and following reno across. Wouldn’t figure all went back down and through the village. Wooden Leg gives a good narrative that ties all this together. Although you did mention often how hard it was to get up the bluffs…must have not been easy at all to traverse em! Iron thunder mentioned cutting across to a knoll, and his horse eventually going lame. DeRudio The Indians watched that column probably ten minutes and as soon as that column disappeared the heavy firing commenced on the other side and they left.
Wooden Leg I joined with others in going around to the left or north side of the place where were the soldiers. From our hilltop position I fired a few shots from my newly-obtained rifle. I aimed not at any particular ones, but only in the direction of all of them. I think I was too far away to do much harm to them. I had been there only a short time when somebody said to me: "Look! Yonder are other soldiers!" I saw them on distant hills down the river and on our same side of it. The news of them spread quickly among us. Indians began to ride in that direction. Some went along the hills, others went down to cross the river and follow the valley. I took this course. I guided my horse down the steep hillside and forded the river. Back again among the camps I rode on through them to our Cheyenne circle at the lower end... I looked a few moments at the battling Indians and soldiers across the river on the hills to the northeastward. More and more Indians were flocking from the camps to that direction. Some were yet coming along the hills from where the first soldiers had stopped.
Iron The report was that they were coming to head off the women and children from the way they were going, and so we turned around and went towards them. Our men moved around in the direction of a circle, but I cut across to a knoll and looked up the river and saw them coming down. The day before the fight I had come back from a war party against the Crows. I had only one horse, and his feet were worn out (the Indians do not shoe their horses, and they often give out on long marches), and by the time I got half-way back to where Long-Haired Chief and his men were my horse was so lame I could go no further
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Post by noggy on Dec 15, 2023 2:47:50 GMT -6
I wouldn't doubt Benteen that there were a few indians on the high point Side note: Benteen is a great example of how memories of things change over the years; if I recall correctly, he said there were 1000-1500 warriors in the village/at the fight in 1876, shortly after the battle. Some years later, he said 9 000. No ofc, the latter number may have been in an attempt to "justify" the beating the troops got, but still. I think it was rosebud who has emphasized how testimonies tend to lose credibility over the years for a number of reason, and I also feel the closer to the battle things were told, the "truer" they seem. Noggy
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 15, 2023 3:25:04 GMT -6
Some (re-) tellings sure do seem to get more…interesting…as time went on. Others are very good for supplying or verifying details (i.e. Hare) especially when the consistency in basics is there (like Edgerly).
Benteen is tough even 3 years later…definitely has his peculiarities. Godfrey, and his Gall take, Martin, Curley…fun!
It is a real plus when statements can be corroborated by others who were there, and/or confirmed by other evidence.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 15, 2023 5:22:18 GMT -6
I agree with Noggy that the Native American accounts are unimaginative presentation of first hand experience and valuable for this. Amongst the best I have seen and admired is the work of 'White Bird' or ' Bald Forehead" whose drawings (some) are icons of the battle and wider conflict with the well known charging Indians image - link. A less well knowm drawing by WB might just possibly give an important detail of the Custer fight link besides being a remarkble work of art.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 15, 2023 10:59:28 GMT -6
J41
In some ways DeRudio is not short of a complete PITA but it wasn't really his fault. Brisbin put DeRudio's story into print and which of what is who? Fortunately O'Neil got into print.
The Chicago trstimony deals with the departure of the hostiles. This coincided with the Young Hawk fivht across the water under the bluffs. The Indians pulled off Reno and a half of them ( that DeRudio could see) wdnt up the bluffs. He saw it. Is there any reason to doubt his words? No.
There is an easy trail up the bluffs below Weir Point. We discussed it earlier in the topic.
Whilst DeRudio discussed the warrior movement, Reno and Benteen and no-one else really did. Mind you DeRudio was in a position to see it and 20/20 eagle vision, it seems.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 15, 2023 15:16:07 GMT -6
The thing I find funny about the ledger art is the soldiers lining up shooting away, but by the accounts that the Indians give that they suffered minor casualties, the soldiers couldn't hit a barn door.
Ian
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