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Post by herosrest on Oct 30, 2023 13:29:37 GMT -6
On Jul 10, 2013, $5,100 were paid for John Gibbon's annotated working copies of two articles on the Battle of Little Big Horn and the Pursuit of Sioux Indian Chief Sitting Bull. his is two printed articles in 63 pages with over one hundred corrections, his initialed signature at closing and numerous tipped-in hand drawn sketches. It seems Gibbon was proofing the articles for inclusion to a further work relating his experiences on the Plains. The articles are a must read for serious battle buffs and even more so for those with absolutely no interests in the battle whatever, but feel the call to bless and cross anything which ain't nailed down. Testing..... testing! 'One. Two. Thuree.... four..... five thousand one hundred bucks! More than fought Custer........ So, this affair 9The battle) had many fulcrums around which the fates and gods of war woke fate and fortune. If you thought, perhaps, I should have used 'spun' - I thought it too droll, even for the wonderfully scrumptious moi. Published within a year of the battle (I believe) in a religious periodical, the articles are notable for Gibbon's keen observations on the ground and historical militariness which is little detected or commeneted and even more so because it was Crook, that done it. Hence J.J. Reynolds carrer was terminated in a pillow fight of glories for an attack undertaken on the coldest days ever known to man on the Plains and probably not yet equaled. Poor old JJ, eh! Of course though, leaving your wounded behind to the absolute angers of those Cheyenne surviving destruction of their homes and belongings in the coldest winter on record; was unfortunate. There was no kindly disposition towards disabled men in blue that day. There ya go. A lottle known part of the saga, from onr involved in it and its consequences. You have to wonder how Two Moons could be so well adjusted in later years to the destruction of his village. Previously, as a youngster, cavalry had killed his father on the Solomon's Forks where Jeb Stewart was seriously wounded. I wonder sometimes if was the Arikara 'Carries the Otter' who shot Custer's future nemesis that day 300 Cheyennes lined up to skirmish mounted, whilst Sumner went to the sabre......... Talk about surprised! You see, there was this medicine man type who convinced the men that his magic would render the army weapons impotent. They bought into it and deployed to wipe out the troops. For whatever sublime reason, the cavalry were ordered to charge with sabre and the Cheyennes stood very briefly before realising that the soldiers were not going to use their guns. I may have linked the wrong article here. I did, so....... two for the price of one. Gibbon described the view towards Horizon Ridge from Reno's positions on the bluffs. He was very good with observation and getting it down on paper.
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 30, 2023 20:59:23 GMT -6
Great stuff!! It is 5-600 yards (1700' ft) from Weir's Hill to Reno retreat up. It is +/-1100 yards from WH to Reno Corral. Martins Ridge +/-900 yrds to RBDS. Sharpshooter's Hill +/-800 yards to RBDS. Lower hills to the east and southeast and south are closer. {For comparison, Weir Point is 2300 yards away. A bit far for Henry .44rimfires & 1873 44-40s, and even .45-55 405gr trap-door carbines. And of course the highest hill/Martin’s ridge is half-way in between.} Head of South coulee is just past the high sharp peak ‘and high ground to the right of the high peak’ a few hundred yards to the right. Where Edgerly went. And Custer went. Where Martin went. And Kanipe went on the 27th with Benteen to get to the battlefield. Edgerly A. We moved out along the ridge, the highest point, that point “7,” and then we moved down the valley in the general direction of the point “8.Thanks! We now have Gibbon confirming what Godfrey had said....the indians occupied the high points surrounding Reno Corral after he 'chased' them back from the Weir Retreat skirmish line 1700' ft south of Weir's Hill at Reno Retreat up. Varnum A. I can give very little information in answer to that question. We started on the 28th {27th} to go down and bury the dead and in going down I was on a trail which I supposed was General Custer’s, and when we got to a high hill that had a pile of stones and Indian medicine bags and other things on it, I went there to see what they were and rode off the trail and circled around and came back on the trail…”
Point 7 from Wagner…what he called “3411”… Herendeen Q. That circular mark is to indicate the position Major Reno took. How far from there can you see the country towards “B”? A. To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.
Godfrey "When we got to the ridge in front of Reno's position I observed some Indians making all haste to get possession of a hill to the right. {SSH? WH??}I could not see the rest of the command, and I knew that that hill would command Reno's position. Supposing that my troop was to occupy the line we were then on, I ordered Hare to take ten men and hold the hill, but, just as he was moving off, an order came from Reno to get back as quickly as possible; so I recalled Hare, again drove the Indians to cover, and ordered the men to run to the lines. This movement was executed, strange to say, without a single casualty. ON RENO HILL The Indians now took possession of all the surrounding high points, and opened a heavy fire. They had in the meantime sent a large force up the valley, and soon our position was surrounded. It was now about seven o'clock."
Varnum ”… by the time got back to the corral, the high hill over to the north was black with Indians”Wilson, 1879
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 31, 2023 4:20:46 GMT -6
And now we know where/why the note on Benteen’s sketch about ‘ravine off here where 30 men not found nor buried” originated.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 31, 2023 14:42:17 GMT -6
They were confused. In theory, there were 30 men form the five companies who were marching with those companies packtrains. The NCO's obviously were not missed but the men were. This is a simple assumption based in the somewhat unfortunate situation with burials and quite reasonable. Just because Benteen thought thirty men were missing, doesn't mean that thirty men were missing and thirty men actually were not missing. That did not stop Officer's scouting to find them, ala Godfrey. He didn't find thirty dead troops but did discover 'Nap" with some dead grass stuffed into his mouth. Now Basil, leave the guests alone while they are enjoying themselves! Thinks there were 30 Rees. Saw them go back with herd of Sioux ponies and no officer with pack train tried to stop them. Says that when pack train3 got up all was in confusion with all six troops there with Reno and Benteen. Did pack train start toward Custer when Godfrey, Benteen, and others moved down that way? Yes, went to top of ridge where could see Weir out ahead. Did he see any ammunition boxes opened while waiting to start? No. Maguire, C Troop Soon after Benteen joined Reno on hill, Capt. Weir started to open up communication with Custer, and the troop marched out along bluff until came to a jumping-off place from which could look down upon the hollow of Medicine Tail coulee. Men dismounted and put horses behind Edgerly peaks and behind hill to east, and men formed line over this hill from east to west. Seeing many horsemen over on distant ridge with guidons flying, Weir said, "That is Custer over there," and mounted up ready to go over, when Sergt. Flanagan3 said: "Here, Captain, you had better take a look through the glasses; I think those are Indians." Weir did so and changed his mind about leaving the place. Accordingly the men were dismounted and the horses led behind the hill. The Indians soon came up in great force, and the men were mounted up and started back along the ridge in column of twos on a walk. After going some distance the Indians had arrived on Edgerly peaks and opened up a hot fire. Corpl. Wylie had a ball shot through his canteen, the staff of the guidon he was carrying was shot off, the flag dropped, and Vincent Charley was shot and fell off his horse. Wylie got down to pick up the guidon. At the same time Edgerly was stooping over Charlie and told him to lie quiet and he (Edgerly) would return and rescue him. Here Edgerly had difficulty in mounting his horse. This was some distance south of Edgerly peaks (and probably about opposite the ravine on east side of bluffs in which the cedar trees are growing). Says no other troop got as far in the advance as D troop. Does not recall seeing Corpl. Foley ride down pursued by Indians and never heard of it. This refers to what Flanagan told me. Wylie, D Troop Martin met us with Cooke's message before we got to the Little Bighorn. When we tried to get to Custer, we looked down (into Medicine Tail coulee) and saw the country thick with Indians, and some of the men said: "Captain, the Indians are getting around us." Benteen said, "Major Reno, we cannot fight them here. We had better fall back and make a stand somewhere." On our way back the Indians did not press us closely. In the valley the bodies of McIntosh and Isaiah lay near together. When Benteen took Company H over to Custer ridge on 27, he went up to the ridge via Crazy Horse gully. The body nearest the river was that of the chief trumpeter Voss, and near to it was that of Kellogg, the newspaper reporter. Both of these bodies were within a stone's throw of the river. In Crazy Horse gully or washout there were bodies lying thick, and some of the men exclaimed, "Here lies the whole command." Glenn, H Troop Says Co. M (Capt. French) went all way to Edgerly peaks, from which could look down in direction of Custer Ridge. Says at first when looked over toward Custer ridge the Indians were firing from a big circle, but it gradually closed until they seemed to converge into a large black mass on the side hill toward the river and all along the ridge. He thinks what they saw was the last stages of the fight. His description of what took place at Edgerly Hills while Co. M was there seems reliable. Among other things he said the appearance of Indians coming from Custer Ridge toward Weir hills looked as thick as grasshoppers. Pigford, M Troop Plink, plink, fizz......................I, White Eagle, and Bull followed Custer and five companies. We came upon a white soldier whose horse had given out, and he was kicking the horse and striking him with his fist and saying "Me go Custer. Me go Custer." As we went up a little dip we looked over and saw the valley full of Sioux tepees, and I would estimate that there were eight or nine big circles. The first (Hunkpapa) camp was breaking up. If I had had a good horse, I probably would have kept up to Custer and been killed with him. I soon came across a second soldier whose horse was down, overcome by heat, and he could not get him up and was swearing and calling him a son of a bitch and kicking him. Just after this I saw Ree scouts who had captured horses come up the ridge and Strikes Two said: "Leader, I will give you this spotted horse that is leading the herd." Where they came up the river ran right along the foot of the bluff. Strikes Two said, "Don't take him out. We will drive the whole herd together back to lone tepee." We started back and saw the pack mules coming along by lone tepee. Again my horse could not keep up, and Red Star came up behind me and said, "Uncle, do you see that mouse-colored horse with a white belly? I captured him and you may have him, so take care of him." I took him and brought him back to our reservation, and he lived many years on Ft. Berthold reservation. I was following the herd back toward lone tepee. We came to the two soldiers whose horses had given out. They were together and on foot on the side of the hill. Five Sioux came up, following us. These two soldiers became separated and the Sioux circled them and we supposed killed them both. We drove the horses back and met the packs. I was still behind. When I got up to them, all of the Rees had picked fresh horses and changed, and Red Star was riding the big horse that Strikes Two wanted me to ride. I then picked a spotted one, and when I got saddled up, I followed back to bluff over river. When got there could not see any fighting going on and thought that fighting must all be stopped. Soon we saw survivors of valley fight coming up the ridge. Little Brave's spotted horse came up with the rest. Red Bear came straggling up without any shoes, and the boys picked the prickly pear prongs out of his feet. I soon recognized Bobtail Bull's horse. Strikes Two remarked that Bobtail Bull must have been killed in the fight. Horse had bridle, saddle, and blanket tied to horn of saddle. I went to Gerard and showed him Bobtail Bull's horse, and Gerard [must have been some one besides Gerard] told us to catch him. I went and took the blanket and said I would keep it. Horse had a curbed bit and fancy trimmings. Stab took the bridle. Horse had no picket rope. Stab proposed that we follow the ridge toward where Custer had gone. We did so. Sioux were coming and getting around us before we got to end of ridge. A group of soldiers stood on the ridge behind us. The party was Stab, Strikes Two, Boy Chief, Strike Lodge, Little Sioux, Soldier, Karu, Watoksha, Mahcpiya Sha, and Cross. The Sioux now attacked us and drove us and the soldiers, and we went back beyond the lone tepee. Stab was riding one of the two captured mules, and his own horse was put in the captured herd. Soldier, Ree scout As one sees in the many images posted of Horizon Ridge, it rises steeply towards its razorback summit which forms a bowl which falls away towards MTC's dry creek. Trumpeter Martin would have become familiar with the view seen below as his company were assaulted and forced into counter measures. The nearer high hills terminating gullies running to the river flat, appear taller than the actually taller heights seen towards horizon. The reality of the nearer highest hill is a complete illusion but one which continues to evade the magic of logic. Today, through the progress of science, art, mathematics and intrinsic search of pleasure there remain those who would hold the world back insisting it 'be' flat and that pancakes cannot flip, or be served with icecream. Behold the mystery of Weir's Hill -
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 31, 2023 20:07:33 GMT -6
Isnt it great that all these guys were actually on all these points?! Numerous times for many.
That way they knew the reality of what was what, instead of forming some opinion based on “illusions” or tele-photo lenses (or pictures) when they compared points and heights and locations. Pictures, like maps, at the least do let us know what existed.
So many are reliably confirmed, so their reality is THE reality. Guys like Benteen and DeRudio and Herendeen and Martin and Edgerly and Hare and even Maguire etc were here there and every where!
Very cool when so many of their statements jive, and w/period maps to back things up.
“It was the highest point around there. I went on the top of it afterwards, on the 27th, with Captain Benteen.”
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 6:17:40 GMT -6
When all those guys were up there, they were not eating bratwuerst, were they? No. Also, they were not keeping notes there and then and recollection fades rather quickly and especially so when, people are trying to lift their scalps and puncture skulls. General impression. I think he served with the Marines and was decorated for something or other, at some time, somewhere. Here's an angle on the Reno Hill thing, 'cos it simply isn't what you are carrying around inside your head, J41. Let's do Ferdinand A. Culbertson and his recollections in remembering Reno Hill when it wasn't. Here littlebighorn.info/Articles/terryre1.htm is copy of the Official Report of the battle, and we know today that it was not earnest or forthright with matters of the rout out of the valley onto the bluffs. Reno's Hill, his defensive position during seige from the evening of 25th June, 1876; did not exist at 2:30pm that day. It came about hours later in retreat along the bluffs from advanced positions trying to open communication with battalions known to be fighting to the north. Considerable fuss has been vomited over the location of Weir's Hill when all that matters, et al, is what happened there. The argument about where it precisely was and might still be, is itself - entirely spurious. What happened on Weir's Hill? Culbertson might offer a clue or two. Yu know, there's a flag named after him. Someone paid $2.2 for it. I know where the missing bit of it went......... Funny old World.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 6:45:42 GMT -6
They were on the 27th. Not nearly as much pressure. Same with Maguire. Or Gibbon. 'Several seasons after'...'several times since' Yep...no pressure. So NO - a dozen memories didn't all fade in a year or 2 or 3....in exactly the same way. You are squirming - for no reason. Give it up. Not at ALL. Camp the surveyor told us EXACTLY where it is. Checked ON SITE with some of, and jiving with, ALL those guys with the "bad" memories., Next!!
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 7:05:17 GMT -6
This is unfortunate. Context your stuff properly, please. There were specific reasons to approach high ground on 27th June '76, in complying with Terry's orders to 'go see for yourself, where they lay'. Your concepted sharp pointy hill offers no views of the corpses as reported by those who viewed them from sharp pointy hills on 27/28 June. After retreat from the valley fighting, interest was with the valley below, hostile forces in it, and those of the camps in view below which could be seen above the treetops amongst clouds of dust reported by some of the troops and Officers on the bluffs downriver of the later defensive position. Reno, did not order a recon to move downriver and locate the five companies or communicate with them. That took place once Weir had decided that something ought to be done to support the battalions advanced out of sight downriver beyond Horizon Ridge. Benteen's command joined Reno's Battalion without seeing companies downriver along the Luce Ridge, Monument Hill axis and thus did not ride over or along SSR. The six companies united on the bluffs at the point where the retreat struck the heights - that is, where Reno led them onto the bluffs and halted to regroup. This was considerably downriver of the later action at RBDS and was where all arriving companies and packtrains reported, and then waited. Over to Ferdinad A. Culbertson.....................
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 7:11:14 GMT -6
Nope - you are mixing up your hills. Gibbon's "sharp peak"is just north of Reno, the other whatevers nearer Custer.
He did decide to retreat though...maybe while standing on Weir's Hill/Martin's ridge with Benteen. "standing 1/2mile behind D troop"
Yep. Maybe. More or less.
Wallace Q. When you reached the top of the hill, what did the command do? A. It halted and dismounted and the first thing done was to get the companies together, organize them, and then they had to count off again and dismount so as to make another stand. A. They were first dismounted and deployed on the crest of the bluff, and then mounted and moved back, and about this time word came that Captain Benteen was coming.
"Considerable" being like 3-400 hundred yards?
No one said they did.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 8:33:24 GMT -6
Nope - you are mixing up your hills. Gibbon's "sharp peak"is just north of Reno, the other whatevers nearer Custer. Afraid not. You are having difficulty with context, again.He did decide to retreat though...maybe while standing on Weir's Hill/Martin's ridge with Benteen. "standing 1/2mile behind D troop" He never got that far until 27th, when Benteen escorted him to the Custer fight. Yep. Maybe. More or less. Wallace Q. When you reached the top of the hill, what did the command do? A. It halted and dismounted and the first thing done was to get the companies together, organize them, and then they had to count off again and dismount so as to make another stand. A. They were first dismounted and deployed on the crest of the bluff, and then mounted and moved back, and about this time word came that Captain Benteen was coming."Considerable" being like 3-400 hundred yards? 700-900+No one said they did. I bet you're wrong.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 8:43:57 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 8:48:39 GMT -6
Nope - you are mixing up your hills. Gibbon's "sharp peak"is just north of Reno, the other whatevers nearer Custer. Afraid not. You are having difficulty with context, again. Gibbon is QUITE CLear Where he was and what he was looking at. Check it again. /\
"Standing on top of the main ridge with my back to the river, I overlooked the whole of the ground to the front ..on turning to my left, the ground was seen to rise higher and higher in successive ridges which ran nearly perpendicular to the stream, until they culminated in the sharp peak referred to in my description"
He did decide to retreat though...maybe while standing on Weir's Hill/Martin's ridge with Benteen. "standing 1/2mile behind D troop" He never got that far until 27th, when Benteen escorted him to the Custer fight. Sure he did. See Hare.
"The witness indicated on the map by the figure “5,” the position occupied by Major Reno"Yep. Maybe. More or less. Wallace Q. When you reached the top of the hill, what did the command do? A. It halted and dismounted and the first thing done was to get the companies together, organize them, and then they had to count off again and dismount so as to make another stand. A. They were first dismounted and deployed on the crest of the bluff, and then mounted and moved back, and about this time word came that Captain Benteen was coming."Considerable" being like 3-400 hundred yards? 700-900+ Thats's 2700' - they'd be just under Martin'Ridge Weir's Hill - - maybe, would make sense.
No one said they did. I bet you're wrong. DO I have your "assurance" LOL!!! Haven't been yet.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 8:54:16 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 9:02:55 GMT -6
What's your point?
Is it that "The command moved 1/2 mile-3/4mile" - uh oh - what's 1/2-3/4 mile below Weir's Hill?
You know this one!! (clue: "it is 2500' from Weir's Hill to south Edgerly peak". And you say the reno area at that time was just south of the highest point Weirs Hill. PERFECT!!!
As we know from Hare - Reno was 1/2 mile behind D - at/near Martin's Ridge/Weir's Hill, likely on Hare's highest hill point 5 / DeRudio's highest point point 7 (which are the same - and AKA the highest point Weir's Hill. As you said: "there is only 1 highest point").
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 9:25:22 GMT -6
SORRY - just saw this post!! "Might be" - Ya think?! I've been onto it for months!
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