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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 9:54:41 GMT -6
Gibbon described the terrain very well. He did not measure it. He turned on the bluff top towards HR which was then and is now - highest. The ridge and hill where it terminates are the highest terrain within any view. About half a mile - Reno and Benteen. The point was that Reno did not get a view beyond HR towards the CB and MH. Your 2700' translation - I was measuring from towards the Benteen position to south end of RBDS, where Martin was, with Benteen. Measure from there. When the retreat arrived into the water, men and horses jammed into the mouth leading off the flat and some moved off lower and others higher along the stream. That scattered them going for the heights, hence Culbertson arrived above on the bluffs and DeWolf moved into contact downriver which killed him. Others following DeWolf were called off and veered upriver. It was desperate and not pretty with casualties all along the way being picked off from above and below by marksmen in volley. The scouts went across even lower down and were cutoff and surrounded. Yet others crossed downriver and returned across it to the timber. Dead in the valley, in the water, on the banks and up the bluffs; with wounded men struggling in on horseback as best they could. According to one of the Rees, don't remember which, those in company with Reno rallied on the way and distributed ammunition (one assumes from saddle-bags) before continuing up. As I said, the RBDS had no bearing on events of the retreat and rally on the bluffs. At Chicago, Reno stated that his intent was to reach the heights in order that the regiment should rally on him - that's in black and white, but of course is nuanced by hindsight and CYA. If that position was his idea of salvation then he truly belonged on the funny farm. He had not seen the terrain up there and did not have a clue what was up there beyond a hat waving party. Mayve it was code. Maybe waving a hat means...... Come here, immediately!
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 10:25:44 GMT -6
Gibbon described the terrain very well. He did not measure it. He turned on the bluff top towards HR which was then and is now - highest. The ridge and hill where it terminates are the highest terrain within any view of custer battlefield. Terrible View of Reno position, and Retreat Up point. He did describe it as a "sharp mt peak"... you can take issue with what that means. I am good with it. We know it’s Weir Hill cause NO Indians were at edgerly peaks firing into the RBDS.About half a mile - Reno and Benteen. The point was that Reno did not get a view beyond HR towards the CB and MH. Ya think? Find someone who said he did. He DID discuss retreating, because...Your 2700' translation - I was measuring from towards the Benteen position to south end of RBDS, where Martin was, with Benteen. Measure from there. Check Camp - he might give it - he does do distances and bearings quite well.When the retreat arrived into the water, men and horses jammed into the mouth leading off the flat and some moved off lower and others higher along the stream. That scattered them going for the heights, hence Culbertson arrived above on the bluffs and DeWolf moved into contact downriver which killed him. Others following DeWolf were called off and veered upriver. It was desperate and not pretty with casualties all along the way being picked off from above and below by marksmen in volley. The scouts went across even lower down and were cutoff and surrounded. Yet others crossed downriver and returned across it to the timber. Dead in the valley, in the water, on the banks and up the bluffs; with wounded men struggling in on horseback as best they could. According to one of the Rees, don't remember which, those in company with Reno rallied on the way and distributed ammunition (one assumes from saddle-bags) before continuing up. As I said, the RBDS had no bearing on events of the retreat and rally on the bluffs. At Chicago, Reno stated that his intent was to reach the heights in order that the regiment should rally on him - that's in black and white, but of course is nuanced by hindsight and CYA. If that position was his idea of salvation then he truly belonged on the funny farm. He had not seen the terrain up there and did not have a clue what was up there beyond a hat waving party. Mayve it was code. Maybe waving a hat means...... Come here, immediately! lot to unpack..but Ok.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 10:40:41 GMT -6
I dived back into the ACQR vol II, having entire confidence in my recall, memory, and reality. I have lifted the word, that being Gibbon's rather than higher authority although he may be rumbling at Arlington over misuses of his sanctimony. He was a gunner, you know. Great big cannon balls. He wrote a book on it, a manual I think it was although t'was long ago that I thumbed its weary pages. Now Sir, Take note that your wiley fox, is a chicken stuffed with turkey pellets. Here, I quote Gibbon and precisely as I remembered. Looking down the river in the direction we had come was a point of timber jutting out into the plain, where for a portion of the time the cavalry had fought dismounted; and beyond this, in plain sight from where I stood, was located the village where the fight began; and opposite that, hidden from sight by the high peak so often referred to, was the scene of Custer's fight, where his body was found surrounded by those of his men and horses.
On the highest point of the ridge occupied by the troops, and along what had been the northern line of defence, were pitched a number of shelter tents, and under and about these were lying some fifty wounded men, receiving the care of the surgeons and their attendants.
The cheerfulness of these poor fellows under their sufferings, and their evident joy at their rescue was touching in the extreme, and we listened with full hearts to their recital in feeble tones of the long anxious hours of waiting and fighting, during which every eye was strained, looking for the coming succor, hoping for its arrival, yet fearing it would be too late. At one time, so strongly did the imagination affect the judgment, the whole command was convinced that columns of troops could be seen moving over the hills to their assistance, but in directly the opposite direction from which they actually came. So strong was this delusion that the buglers of the whole command were assembled and ordered to sound their bugles to attract attention. When we finally made our appearance down the valley, the same thing was done, and it is supposed that it was the gathering together of the buglers on the highest point of the hill which finally decided in our minds that we were looking at men and horses, and not clumps of cedar trees. But we heard nothing of the bugles, for the wind was blowing from us.Gibbon did not state specifically where he stood and therefore for you to assume it is where you want him to have stood, is many things, none of them good, in fact all of them quite wayward in ways which raise fundamental questions about your ability to rationalise stuff. I feel quite let down by your broad failings with the basics. Perish the thought you are another of these lunatics manipulating reality to project and protect some ill-conceived placatory whim in bloodlines. PUDDING
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 10:42:01 GMT -6
Sure he did.
Better re-read it…
“I found myself on a sort of rough broken plateau, which sloped gradually up to the curved summit occupied by the troops. I soon came to a line of rifle-pits facing the space I was crossing, and running from the summit of the ridge down to the bluff overlooking the river, whilst behind this and facing the other way was another line, running in a similar way along the summit of an almost parallel ridge. Between the two were standing and lying, almost motionless, the horses and pack-mules of the command. … As I approached the summit of the main ridge which overlooked all the rest of the ground I have described, the evidences of the severe struggle which had taken place here began to manifest themselves. Dead horses and mules were lying about in every direction, and in one little depression on the other slope of the main divide I counted forty-eight dead animals…” “Standing on top of the main ridge with my back to the river, I overlooked the whole of the ground to the front ; but on turning to my left, the ground was seen to rise higher and higher in successive ridges which ran nearly perpendicular to the stream, until they culminated in the sharp peak “ … “ Whilst this company is away we are busy preparing to remove the wounded down from the hot, dusty hill where they are lying to my camp, where they will be more comfortable and can be better cared for.”
BBQ Sauce.
Next!!!
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 10:56:51 GMT -6
Good luck with that. Precisely reinforcing what I gave - which is a dog with a bone. Let's try the word of God - Enjoy!Main ridge..............
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 10:58:42 GMT -6
lol!
That’s so clear you should get it easy! He was at Reno. Only.
Not that hard.
“I found myself on a sort of rough broken plateau, which sloped gradually up to the curved summit occupied by the troops. I soon came to a line of rifle-pits facing the space I was crossing, and running from the summit of the ridge down to the bluff overlooking the river, whilst behind this and facing the other way was another line, running in a similar way along the summit of an almost parallel ridge. Between the two were standing and lying, almost motionless, the horses and pack-mules of the command.
As I approached the summit of the main ridge which overlooked all the rest of the ground I have described,the evidences of the severe struggle which had taken place here began to manifest themselves. Dead horses and mules were lying about in every direction, and in one little depression on the other slope of the main divide I counted forty-eight dead animals”
“Standing on top of the main ridge with my back to the river, I overlooked the whole of the ground to the front but on turning to my left, the ground was seen to rise higher and higher in successive ridges which ran nearly perpendicular to the stream, until they culminated in the sharp peak “
“Turning again to the left so as to face the river, the broad open flat where Colonel Reno had made his charge at the commencement of the battle on the 25th lay directly at our feet”
Overlooking Reno. As described.
Next!!
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 11:26:17 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 11:28:33 GMT -6
Don’t see timber.
Or Reno. Or a sharp peak.
Not sure what you’re looking at.
You should also read about the officers he met coming down from Reno..,might help.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 11:31:17 GMT -6
That's SSR.
What does parallel ridges suggest in relation to the RBDS rifle pits described by Gibbon?
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 11:33:37 GMT -6
That he was at the bluffs with his back to the river overlooking Reno corral.
He explains it quite well.
Ah - SSH - one of the high points the Indians occupied. And just east of the sharp peak.
Perfect!
Gibbon “Several of these ridges commanded in reverse the position occupied by the troops, and we were told had been occupied by the Indians during the fight of the 26th, their long-range rifles covering all the space within the lines.“
Wallace "When we first occupied the position the Indians commenced firing on us. They were coming back from what proved to be General Custer’s battlefield. They came up and occupied several of the high points that were down the river from us"
"most of the Indians left the bottom we came from, some of them occupying the points between us and where General Custer’s fight took place, the remainder went back into the village. There was a high hill which concealed the upper part of the village from us." ... "but we could not see them crossing on account of the high ground. We could only see the upper end of the village from our position."
SSH is +/-800 yards away. Weir's Hill about 1000 yards, on the bluffs.
Gibbon, RCOI "Naturally it was commanded at tolerably long ranges by the hill which bordered it on the downstream side."
Others of the several were very likely Martins Ridge/ Weirs Hill. 900-1000yards seems far, but see Reno, Godfrey &Benteen - 'all the positions from 12 ft to 1200 yards were occupied'.
Benteen Within what radius do you estimate they so occupied the ground? A. From 12 feet to 1200 yards.
Reno A. Yes, sir, and were all the way from 10 yards to 1200 yards from my position.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 11:48:16 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 11:56:30 GMT -6
Thats better. We pretty much know there were Indians up on Sharpshooter’s Hill.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 12:17:59 GMT -6
Hmmmm........... well, one esrtwhile version of these period accounts attributes Varnum's sighting of the Grey horse troop in the lost ravine at SSH. That is an interpretation which is taken seriously. As Brust showed with you avatar image, the merging of distant hilltops merges them into the horizon. So, did Custer ride his battalions over SSR where they were seen by Varnum, or were they seen by Varnum routing below the Horizon Ridge complex, after riding around the hill and over HR into Middle and South Coulees? These are the basic opening gambits into MTC for models and understanding of the fight. There is also Godfrey's seriously wide route over the eastern ridges and who knows, maybe that was the way of it but it was difficult to swallow long ago (1892) and still is. There might be a horshoe laying in the ground out there which, if ever discovered, would transform understanding. That's a neat avatar. Godfrey and Camp. Do you know where they are?
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 12:20:41 GMT -6
Right - cause that book is right, and Huffman wasn't! LOL!! Hows your skirmish lines and that Hodgson marker? ITS A JOKE!! Their "location" was 3/4 mile away and didn't even have a slope!! From quick review - I say they were 50/50 nonsense. Nice pics though! Yep - EXACTLY! See Camp. None of the above. Varnum didnt see them on SSH. He marked on Graham he saw them in cedar. BUT... Varnum I can’t fix it on the map. Assuming that the position of Major Reno’s command on the hill is correct it was probably a quarter of a mile below that or something like that"1/4 mile from Reno command" = Clearly NOT below Edgerly peaks. I think they were a little farther down than where we struck the bluffs and went up on them, and not quite so far down as the figure '2" in pencil on the map"
Huh - so we are good - again - with Custer moving on the bluffs while Reno is down in the valley - again? But I saw about the time Major Reno’s command dismounted in the bottom just as I joined it from the left and front, looking on the bluffs across the river to our right I saw the Gray Horse Company
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 12:38:36 GMT -6
Custer led five companies out of Reno Creek into Medicine Tail Coulee. What are you on about?
The Hodgson marker on the bluffs was placed by O.J. Sweet (I believe - I have the report handy so will check) and it is corroborated by the Three Crows, as the place where they were left behind the cavalry advance into MTC. It would be wrong to believe that that is where they stayed - in the area where the marker was placed in 1890 - they continued on along the bluffs to become the three figures whom DeRudio sighted.
It might be worthwhile getting into Martin's time after he left Custer and met Benteen. He had quite specific orders to return to Custer and Cooke if safe to do so, or remain with Benteen. The Orderly assignments for company trumpeters was awkward for Martin, as things turned out, since the only people who could relieve him of that days duty were the Chief Trumpeter, and Custer (through Cooke). Thus Martin got jammed up with 'shoot me if you can' Benteen, strutting about his defensive sector drawing fire from every enemy in range. Interesting casualty figures for Company H, considering they only fought defensively on their hill.
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