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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 12:41:24 GMT -6
I am not on about anything..AFAIK.
You at one point said Reno was a ford A while Custer was...somewhere way down stream. You change your mind so much - hard to keep up with your latest notion! So which is it? It’s about the time you also said 1891 Marshall had 3600' elevation marks - remember THAT nonsense? That and some mysyical sworn martin statement you couldn't come up with.
Next!!
Onto...
Martin
Q. Tell what direction you were then going. A. We went more to the right from that ridge and went down to a ravine that went to the river. At the same time General Custer passed that high place on the ridge or a little below it he told his Adjutant to send an order back to Captain Benteen.
RCOI Q. Can you point out on the map in what direction General Custer went after he got to the point 7? {7=DeRudio saw GC} A. General Custer struck to the right then struck a ravine and went down to the river. We could not go over the bluffs because the bluffs were badlands. Q. How far did you go till you got sent back? A. It was about to the head of the ravine. Q. Where do fix it if you can on the map. (the witness indicated the point by figure 8)
Q. How far was the point you left Custer from the place Reno made his stand? A. I don't know I could not judge. It was 5-600 yards, or probably 3/4 mile.
Q. Where was that point from which you first saw Major Reno fighting? Was it further up the stream then where he made the stand or at the same place? A. About at the same place.
Q. That place from which you saw the village and children, dogs and ponies - was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand? A. Yes sir, the highest hill the very highest point around there.
Q. How far was that high point from the head of the ravine you spoke of? A. About 500 yards.
Q. When you left General Custer you could not see the river? A. No sir it was on the other side of the hill - the hill was In front of us.
...
““Custer first halted on Weir‘s hill and took a look at village…Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village."
"...whole column passed over the high ridge from which they could plainly see village and children and dogs in it. Martin says he was with Custer after he passed the high ground and left him just as the command started down a ravine to get off the bluff, somewhat to the right of highest ground {AKA pt7 / G / Weir's Hill} and about 1000 feet from it[=br] "Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail or cut across the hill and save some of the distance. He Dog seemed to think Custer cut across the hill. No - Custer followed coulee all the way"
“Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen and I started back with it on the trail. I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground. ...
"...I kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of C troop, but whose name I did not know."
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 12:43:16 GMT -6
Have you got that other image of Camp and Godfrey handy. SSR and they are collecting relics... or was it just Godfrey on his own, maybe.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 12:47:14 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 12:56:47 GMT -6
I'll have to hunt up a better quality print for clarity on the horizon. Cheers. There'a whole bunch of 10th Anniversary stuff shot by D.F. Barry, all over the RBDS area. I'll todo it. Good quality imagages. Actually........ some are remarkable.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 13:15:07 GMT -6
Well - this is new - do tell! I am not on about anything..AFAIK. YOU at one point said Reno was a ford A while Custer was...somewhere way down stream. You change your mind so much - hard to keep up with your latest notion! So which is it? Its about the time you also said 1891 Marshall had 3600' elevation marks - remember THAT nonsense? That and some mysyical sworn martin state,ent you couldn't come up with. Next!! Onto... Martin ““Custer first halted on Weir‘s hill and took a 1ook at village…Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village." "...whole column passed over the high ridge from which they could plainly see village and children and dogs in it. Martin says he was with Custer after he passed the high ground and left him just as the command started down a ravine to get off the bluff, somewhat to the right of highest ground {AKA Weir's Hill} and about 1000 feet from it."
"Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail or cut across the hill and save some of the distance. He Dog seemed to think Custer cut across the hill. No - Custer followed coulee all the way"
“Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen and I started back with it on the trail. I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground. ...
"...I kept on up the north and south coulee and soon met a mounted man whom I recognized as one of C troop, but whose name I did not know."
Let's deal with the nonsense. The terrain contours grade at 25'. I have indicated the gradient indicated below Weir's Spur. 3625' +
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 13:19:09 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 13:20:23 GMT -6
1 - 3500 2 - 3525 3 - 3550 4 - 3575 5 - 3600
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 13:29:31 GMT -6
Thats a "3400" you are starting from - it is 1 big loop that loops around from reno all the way around WP, and all along the bluffs. You will have to check your map... or your eyes...wait... Huh - or your photoshop skills... meanwhile here is the one you just posted...
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 13:38:12 GMT -6
Wow - one “3500” suddenly appears...where a "3400" was just days ago.
Hmmmm…
Do you want to stay with that - before I post the original?!?
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 1, 2023 13:41:31 GMT -6
TOO LATE>>>
Original of what was just posted, that you also posted just days ago...
Nice white clean original 1891 Marshall...
And a new 'take'...hmmm... Huh - One of these is not like the others...Too late...but it was a good try! 🤮🤮😢🤮 Hints don't post stuff, and later change it to try to support something that is obviously not real. don't change just 1 BM when there are A LOT of others - - all around. don't pick something just posted days ago, which has plenty of other un-changed versions of the same exact map which all of us have certainly seen, cause they have been posted A TON just in the last few days. Know what? Just don't. Sad. Well - it WAS fun.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 14:15:47 GMT -6
There is a difficulty with events from the separation in Reno Ck. which took Reno into the valley. Whilst Reno's command were getting to and over the river, the battalions with Custer seem to do nothing, or halt for a drink (which was incredibly popular that day) and basically dilly dally around.They climbed on the bluffs and moved over SSR to halt while Custer returned to them from observing the valley. All we have to that is the stuff by Martin, the Crows, and Peter Thompson, and Kanipe. Custer had a chat with Officer's, Kanipe was winged off to Mathey and McDougall, the five companies went on to MTC. Given Custer's halt on the bluffs and then discussing the situation with his Officers, whilst Reno's battalion made their crossing and formed up - their sightings of Custer's command coincided with the advance into MTC. These sightings were about have way through Renos march down the valley to GO, and the halt there to skirmish, produced a sighting of Company E on the bluffs, by Varnum which was at the end of the march down the valley. Say a mile or mile and a half at 12mph 5-6 minutes.
I'll draw a point here. This was a full on military strike on a hostile camp and whether 50 adversaries, or 500, or 5,000, once Reno was launched across Ford A - a battle was underway whether the village was full of barking dogs or baying hostiles. You go in and get it done. That actually didn't happen. The battalions with Custer did not cross the river and fight in he valley. To this day, no-one knows why and it is a fuzz ball of non-logic and prevarication. All sorts of unusual supposedly intelligent and clever assessment washes over things but, there was the village, there was the ford, and there was Reno engaged - briefly. Whatever did happen below MTC saved Reno's escape from the valley, for there was no way his command would not have been overwhelmed in the river had the entire hostile force gone at them.
After the sighting by Varnum, nothing of worth is available to help understand what happened to the five companies other than opinions based in observations of those present until 29th June 1876, and the flakey records gathered over the ensuing 50 years until the last of the participants expired. Dewey Beard and Windolph. Varnum was the last of the Officers.
Taking simple numbers, one in each five men of 7th Cavalry had one years service.20% had two years under their belt. Likewise had 3 years, etc because enlistments were for five years. There were of course re-enlistments. Offensive firepower failed. That's what happened and it often does with lightly armed mobile forces.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 14:18:52 GMT -6
I read 3500, such is life but the point stands. So there Weir's Hill is SSR = Elevation 3,438 feet (1,048 metres) link
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Post by herosrest on Nov 1, 2023 18:19:52 GMT -6
BTW. The image I worked from is a copy of an original which is online - being a copy of Kuhlman's map during his work on the battle. It carries his timeline, updated ideas for events in the valley, and the seeds of what has evolved as Ford D theories which progress his Battle Ridge Extension deployment.
The comment relating to photoshoping was unhelpful but there is a relatively simple cure.
Regards.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 2, 2023 8:17:54 GMT -6
Gibbon
Wallace
Reno, Official Report, RCOI Exhibit 4
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Post by herosrest on Nov 3, 2023 14:03:26 GMT -6
It's been a while. I'm still hunting for a better printed image of the Godfrey\WMC relic find pose since I know it exists. Be that as it may, with stuff somewhat scattered across threads and topics I shall regroup here. Sorry about the 3500 being 3400 but these things happen. Just ask Walter about it if and when you dig him up.
I could launch into a tombe on all this and probably will but first, you have matured a distinct assessment of WMC's ground work and ability with odometer and compass to the p0int that you understand his concept of the terrain related events as you consider them.
What you accept as WH is undoubtedly besides exceedingly likey, the place where Reno was stood surveying the taking down of tipis in the valley and their re-erection downstream at the wrstern fringe of the valley. The episode was mentioned by Herendeen at Chicago, and if not him then probably Varnum. Anyshow, the scouts were asked what was going on down there with tipis being reinstated after a short move along the valley. That was a dignificant event and followed Wdir's departure without orders or permission to get onto and beyond Horizon Ridge. Reno stated before King that heavy firing was going on at that time and presaged the rdtreat back upriver into the RBDs position which only then came to any prominance (as a depression which might hopefully protect the horses and mounts. Of course, pigs were airborn by squadrons that early evening.
Previously, in opening his engagement with hostiles including Standing Bear, Edgerley had deployed skirmishlines across two hills with the horses lead behind into cover. A number of participants involved with the rearguard company and packtrains stated that Company D remained in sight at the time they joined the Benteen and Reno battalions. We could debate what that means but hell..... Let's just throw craps and listen to the Stones.
Stepping back in time, recent time, I stated that WMC's notes were progressive and essentially a big todo list. Take his maps and at some point he decided to mark the location from which Martin rode back. I made the point that hunt as hard as one might there was no record which I discovered for to indicate that WMC and John boy, got together on that terrain to guaratee WMC had nailed it. It's jelly and not even set in rubber.
This happened with several important relevances which WMC wrestled with over time and just as with 3500 is 3400, he was exemplar in major screw-ups. Firstly and formost is the chaos he contributed to with location of the valley skirmish line. He utterly ******ED it into a wake of complete TomFoolery. Go to Gibbon's ACQR texts and there is no doubt whatever in where the fighting began. Absolutely none.
You have fixed WMC's mindest with the terrain to your satisfaction and now what.... You're gonna come up with something new?
♥ The Wagner view image is a good show of dips along the horizon terrain which explain what Varnum explained about his sighting of GH troop. It isn't the only place. Varnum's location for his sighting of GH troop offers the same.
Right, there is much more but I need to hunt up those SSR images and would really, really really really, like to hear about your SSH. Ssssh.........
🤗
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