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Post by herosrest on Dec 1, 2023 13:56:16 GMT -6
If you would care to explain how the trip to the bluffs by Custer, which Martin explained, places them at Benteen's G or Weir's Hill, then please do. I outlined that ride to Curtis's indicated point '2' which was given him by the scouts who preceded Custer. Those scouts were then hung out or dropped at, the area of the Hodgson Marker which... Sweet located on the bluffs in 1890. That's where they were as the 7th Cavalry left them behind. No doubt on that unless you wish to disregard the Crow scouts. After Custer observed the valley with Martin THEN, he returned to the command and held a meeting with his Officers. That does not happen in the saddle. Just trust me on this. Therefore the companies and HQ halted. This is entirely consistent with what Martin had to say about events and the sequence of events. So, where was the halt? Perhaps a ways down Cedar Coulee where Martin said he was sent back from? NO. There is a cross on WMC's map and absolutely no other research notes to back it up. I just ran into an item which may be of interest in regards W.M. Camp. The letterhead - linkSource linkIt would be at the SSR halt that Kanipe departed, the battalions shook down for combat and Custer would have briefed them on mission and intent. Then off they went with a cheer and holler and Martin Calling the commands on his bugle. I believe that Benteen mentioned this somewhere amongst his witterings on the battle.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 1, 2023 15:56:41 GMT -6
Weir’s Hill = highest point = point 7 = Custer 1st saw village = G.
A. I claim that what is called Weir’s Hill is the highest point on the ridge in that vicinity.
Q. That circular mark is to indicate the position Major Reno took. How far from there can you see the country towards “B”? A. To that highest point, Weir’s Hill, probably half a mile down.
A….while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieutenant Cooke and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering, and pretty soon disappeared.
Q. Where was that? A. It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek, just below where Dr. DeWolf was killed. …Where I saw General Custer the river comes right under the bluff.
The witness then designated on the map by the figure “7,” about the point where he saw General Custer on that occasion. Q. About how far do you think it was from the point on the bluff occupied by Major Reno? A. I think it could not have been more than 5 or 600 yards. It was a higher point but lower down on the river.
A. General Custer left that watering place and went about 300 yards in a straight line. Then after that he turned to the right a little more, and traveled that way four or five hundred yards. Then there was a kind of big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge. All at once we looked on the bottom and saw the Indian village at the same time. We could see only children and dogs and ponies around the village. No Indians at all. General Custer appeared to be glad to see the village in that shape and supposed the Indians were asleep in their tepees.
Q. Can you fix the point on the map where you saw the village? Look at the map and don’t try to do it unless you can. A. It was on a line leading from Major Reno’s position to the point “7” as I understand the map,
Q. Could you see the river from that place out there? A. No, sir. The river was right at the foot of the bluff. We could see the village.
Q. That place from which you saw the village and children, dogs and ponies, was it the highest point down the river below where Major Reno made his stand? A. Yes, sir. The highest hill, the very highest point around there. Q. When you moved down afterwards did some of the troops go on that high hill? A. No, sir. Q. How far was that high point from the head of the ravine you speak of? A. About 500 yards.
Q. Can you point out on the map in what direction General Custer went after he got to the point “7”? A. General Custer struck to the right, then struck a ravine and went down to the river.
G the point from which Custer got his first view of the village.
Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it -Hunk and Blackfoot villages W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 1, 2023 16:22:41 GMT -6
There was no SSR halt. Near it, maybe. Try Martins Ridge.👍🏻
Remember the trail:”Custer’s trail went over the saddle of the high ground” And the view from Weirs Hill vs SSH. The ridge they crossed connects them.
Q. Did the whole column go on to the ridge to look down? A. No, sir. The whole column passed over it.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 1, 2023 18:36:13 GMT -6
I was distracted by unrelated stuff in WMC's stuff at BYU.
Give or take, it is a mile and a half from Reno Ck. onto Reno Hill by shortest route.
In terms of viewing the valley from '7' where do feel the command (five companies and HQ) were?
In terms of viewing the valley from '7', your opinion is that was Custer's first observation of the valley?
off to sleep.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 1, 2023 20:35:04 GMT -6
1st view of (part of) the village. I figure he could see the valley when they 1st hit the bluffs. Weirs Hill blocks view, even from Reno Hill (see Wallace).
I get the impression the rest were on Martins Ridge just below the high pinnacle. It could be between 25-50’ lower then the high point. Martin said Custer cheered with the boys, not at the gang in the valley. Maybe he did both?
Martin "Then the General took me with him and we rode to the top of the hill, where we could see the village in the valley on the other side of the river. It was a big village, but we couldn't see it all from there, though we didn't know it then; but several hundred tepees were in plain sight."
After General Custer saw the village with no Indians in it I suppose he was glad and he pulled off his hat and gave a cheer and said "Courage boys we will get them and as soon, as we get through we will go back to our station."
Thompson Black Hill Trails ”We soon gained the top of the bluffs where a view of the surrounding country was obtained... About a half mile further on we came in sight of the Indian village...When the companies came in sight of the village they gave the regular charging yell..." … From this point I was gradually left behind in spite of all I could do to keep up with my company. ...By this time the last of the companies had disappeared over the crest of the hill...
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 7:48:32 GMT -6
It seems obvious that despite your reliance upon given information about events and where they happened, you do not understand them sufficiently to extol their practical virtue and thus considerably diminish the case which you make. So let me tell you this - Custer followed the three Crow scouts and Bouyer, onto the bluffs. There is a little confusion over this between those scouts but insufficient to negate the thrust and detail of their stories. They travelled ahead of Custer and one was even so piquant as to suggest that he waved and called Custer up behind him. Custer on your six........ Wow these guys had large round ones.
There is a quaint acceptance that the record of events produced at Chicago and which has been lovingly pored over and rendered into coherence, is precisely that where in fact it is a considerable shambles of late 19th century peridities and chaotic note taking, when official note taking was possible - since it often was not. What exists today was gathered and assembled duringnumerous visits by a number of enthusiasts with little big better to do than the best that they could with crumbling, edited and yes...... missing and absent notes. Given this, I have jumped a li'l sideeways for a moment into a diary from the time of the battle, which was published much later on September 23, 1906. Quite a lot, well some lot, of this fortuity took place over decades ensuing the index event, to sit idle and unknown even today much to loss of those truly interested in history rather than the melodrama of officers who could not obey or follow orders. The classic here is why Custer annulled the battalion structures after the scout to Powder River but this is a different topicof pertinence.
So, here is splurge from the subsequent diary and of course, how could it be anything else but.
'The orders for the movement were for Major Reno to march down the Little Big Horn valley and charge everything before him, keeping well to the left. General Custer on Major Reno's right. Colonel Benteen's battalion was ordered to the left and front -- to a line of bluffs three or four miles distance, and to attack all he came across. Trumpeter Voss called back to me to report as orderly to General Custer, and, although again it was not my turn, I did as commanded. General Custer told me to keep close behind him, and we began the march which took us to the top of a high hill, from which we saw all of Sitting Bull's village. It seemed deserted, as we could only see a few squaws, papooses, ponies and dogs. ... Custer thought the Indians were out buffalo hunting, and after a consultation, he addressed the men, saying: 'Boys, have courage! Be brave, and as soon as we get through with these Indians we will return home to our winter station.' "How different from the thrilling speeches history puts into the mouths of its generals! Three cheers were given and the march down the ravine began."
Unfortunately my source for this is closely guarded but you should simply accept that Martin kept a diary and that it was published after he left the army. So much for the fool drowned in spaghetti, eh!
There is much confusion over various statements Martin made at the time, at the RCOI, and in later interviews. May as well have been interviewing an Italian, but of course, a consistent vein pulsing study of this battle is the noble inconsequence of those who believe what cannot be fathomed, can; in some vainglorious quest for what! Many try for what, what! significance derived from the within the invisible cloak visited to Sheridan's property in Chicago.
The Crow scouts took Curtis over the ground with him snap happily filming the whole thing and undoubtedly chuffed to be gatting at the facts. WMC followed Curtis's able steps and then a plethora of more amd less capable ennui champing the bit of holier than thou problem solving which entirely missed and misses the point. It reached such proportion that the absolutely well know and understood location of the valley skirmish was transplanted variously to wander about the valley in awe of it wasn't here, it was there. The masterstrokes were completed.
The excerpt from Martin given above, tells everyone and anyone,everything required to understand this battle. There ya go............. Also, there is evidence which I must again guard, to the end that Reno was relieved of duty at Rosebud before the regiment began its hot pursuit of Sitting Bull.
I ask again, since you insist that '7' was Custer's first view of the valley - where were the HQ and the five companies when he (Custer) did it.
I sure you can manage the specifics in short order or could it be that no one wrote it down for us?
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 7:50:33 GMT -6
I find myself wondering what, if at all, you know of the concept of decisive dominance.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 8:06:02 GMT -6
During exchanges back at page 9 of this sorely misunderstood topic, you used the highlited text below to make some kind of point.
Curley On the first line of bluffs back from the river there are two high peaks marked “A” on the map, now called Reno peaks. For some distance south of these there is a high ridge running parallel with the river, but not so high as the peaks.
Custer’s command passed into the valley of a tributary of Reno Creek just behind this ridge and the peaks and went down it, going in a direction directly north and coming out into the bed of Reno Creek about a mile from its mouth at ford B"
This is pure WMC since Curley spoke zero english other than a few grunts and yey or ney, which is why people like Russell Whitebear and Bouyer's good buddy LaForge - translated his oral for people like WMC. It wasn't such a difficulty for Marquis who seems to have had the gift of sign although it is far from perfect.
If you were to suggest that WMC interpretted Curley's interpretted comments then I will concur. Do you think that WMC ever laid eyes upon the Chicago papers and maps? I wonder if he did. Perhaps a letter to the War Department or better still W. A. Graham but of course, in 1925 Graham was only just really getting started with the battle after burning out on everything Benteen which he could rustle up. Of course this all falls across the Battle Study time-lines and it is obvious that time of the place, and timing of the studies, stuff is beneath your remit.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 8:12:07 GMT -6
Would you like to know time and distance data for 7th Cavalry, on 25th June 1876, from an officer of the command and verified by Terry's adjutant Smith. Say please and it shall be yours, as published by a source beyond reproach - a real ACW hero. it is the Holy Grail
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 2, 2023 8:22:24 GMT -6
Is this supposed to be different than everything he else he said?
Sounds just the same.  More corrboration…if you believe martin. More consistancy from him always helps!
You keep re-writing facts - IN YOUR MIND only, to match what YOU cherry-pick to think is practical and not what really happened.
Wrong approach. Facts are facts. Not your wishes. See…its not MY case…its theirs. BIG difference.
Answered. Please see above.
Seems Curtis has issues. You should re-think your faith in him. Too many descrepancies for just a few good pictures and an obvious 1/2 wrong route on a map - and a contrary theory disputed by the very same sources.
Curley was there showing WMC. “Maybe so here…maybe so there” “heap big yell like dog” “heap shoot bang bang”. Fun right?!  Figure they could describe/see just fine where/what Curely showed. If you believe Curley. And of course routes were confirmed by Kanipe and Martin. And by Curley in other interviews. More consistancy and confirmation helps! Try again.
Custer turned around as he reached the top of the ridge and waved his hat, and his men at the bottom of the hill waved their hats and shouted. Custer kept on going on the ridge and the men followed him. Custer’s men were about 100 yards ahead of us. We scouts followed Custer. We galloped our horses and moved faster after Custer and his men. Custer went to a point on. the ridge and then turned to the right and followed a coulee down in a northerly direction.
Q) Where was Custer when you saw Reno come across? A) Over the divide to the right of the first intrenchment. Custer saw the camp from the highest point on the ridge to the right of the first intrenchment. He just saw Reno going down the valley but did not see him come back.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 2, 2023 8:24:24 GMT -6
Sure. Why not!
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 10:35:52 GMT -6
I'll browse through your reply a little later but will say that your obsession with Weir's Hill is virtually irrelevant to anything of consequences other than being where Weir became seriously concerned about events downriver when it seemed to men stationed there after his arrival on the bluffs, that Custer's command were fighting in the valley. He then led his command downriver to terrain where they engaged victorious hostiles returning to the camp as they arrived to the divide between MTC and Deep Coulee. It was an observation point of utterly no significance until the withdrawl from advance after Weir, failed to occupy and hold that hill allowing the army positions upriver to be dominated by medium range heavy calibre weapons pinning down all movement. Here ya go, link should plop into page 324, of a historical work by Clement A. Lounsberry who is a footnote to the reporting of the battle, Mark Kellogg, and the Far West at Bismarck. The time and distance data is last but one paragraph from page bottom. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 10:54:10 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 2, 2023 10:54:21 GMT -6
My apparent “obsession” with Weirs Hill is strictly due to others avoidance to accepting it.
Figure the place where Custer 1st saw the village is VERY important. And plenty else happened there and on it’s ridge, so it IS a vital location.
I would love to move on…people just need to let their unfounded opposition to the facts about Weirs Hill (and Martins Ridge) go. 👍🏻 After pages and pages and pages of posts…seems I can do that now. Thanks!
Minor point, but Weir didn’t lead his command to Weir Point / Edgerly Peaks. Although he did start out first. See edgerly, etc.
His retreat from that Point…his idea, or Reno’s? See Hare.
Much concern about the hostile occupation of the Hill, and ridge(s) and hills bordering Reno position. More decisions by Reno. See Godfrey.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 11:39:02 GMT -6
The Springfield was good out to almost two miles. Nothing happened there other than observation of the valley across to GO and a tun of shooting once it became hostile territory. So much for the maxim about take and hold the high ground. Of course these were cavalry and the horses were far more important than troopers. Yup, stick 'em in a horseshoe and so the opposition can slaughter them from dominating terrain. Still, what else could they do? Maybe we should ask W.W. Averill about stonewalls. Another blast from the past -W.W. Averell
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