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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 30, 2023 5:43:14 GMT -6
You can tell us - as you have - with no back-up to your opinion, but you'd still be wrong, so lets not start that again. A lot of witnesses confirm exactly what (& where) DeRudio said/described...start with Martin. Or the route which everyone who was there actually says and confirmed they took - across Martin's Ridge then down South / Cedar. Nice that Edgerly did just the same - cross the (Martin's) ridge at the highest point 7, move a few hundred yards to the coulee at 8 & down the little valley to the right (of course D came back and around, not like Custer continuing down into MTC) Interesting too that Benteen and Reno were also on the highest point 5/7 aka Weirs Hill 1/2mile above Edgerly Peaks realizing the indians could get around the advance troops then at Edgerly peaks in that coulee (and/or on the same route the Rees took up the river flat) so he/they recalled Weir. Nice of Kanipe to confirm this after he came up with the pack train. Right away whole command {part with pack train - some troops already left} at about half past 2 pm went forward to highest point about 3/4 mile north of place of fortification and stopped there about 1/2 hour
{we know this is the highest point / point 7 / Weir's Hill cause Kanipe gave the distance from Reno Corral, and later confirms it... and eager for a fight and that after the highest point on the bluffs was reached the men, through their eagerness, broke into something like disorder}
We have - me for months now. Others got it years ago.
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Post by herosrest on Nov 30, 2023 6:10:29 GMT -6
Wow. That is Utley's take on the route of march, the one put in the battlefield pamphlets for visitors. He was a significant cpntributor to the linear thinking which transplanted reality into Ceedar Coulee to accomodate Godfrey's whackey races to the battle. Whilst WMC, of course, had to be mindful of the general - the leading expert on the battle at the time - Utley held Luce in raw awe and it seems logical to those on the ground sweeping for relics with mine-detectors in the case of Utley, and also Vaughn be it noted; to conclude that the bottom of Cedar Coulee offered a route up to Luces finds on ridges to the west. Of course that is rather erstwhile and simple tickle which ignores the bulk of participant testimony. Rather as you cherry pick yours into multi-layered waffles of trifle. Unfortunately your jelly doesn't stay on the wall you nail it to. Taking the WMRH stuff put earlier, in conjunction with Martin's early evidence (Chicago) then it is probable beyond likely that WAG was correct that an error occured with miles given as hours. taking the data as perceived by WAG, then we can trace back into Reno Ck. and locate reasonably accurately where the five companies and HQ, watered their horses before galloping straight ahead west onto the bluffs, with Custer way out front riding Victory to get a view of the valley; whilst Reno turned his command considerably south of west to march to the ford where he stopped and had a drink while his battalion watered and crossed the LBH river. Everything holds together very well, as it has countless times in the past. I guess the Keogh and Cook with e trip after Reno could be trifled with but why, they went along with Reno to get a swig or too from his bottles of booze. What ho, chaps...... we'll teach these naughty buffalo hunters a lesson they'll never forget!. Good on you Marcus, the whole Country is rooting for, and depending upon you! Give 'em hell, Boy...........
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Post by herosrest on Nov 30, 2023 6:37:32 GMT -6
I'll delve again into your dilophosaurus high hill, 'the highest hill' difficulties and iterate the absolute timing problem of Custer sat on a high hill (he never did) watching the entirity of Reno's skirmish to then vanish from view to join the five companies and H in Oblivion Avenue.
Unfolding this into its scenario, the command (right wing companies less that led by McDougall) sat about at the head of Cedar Coulee all during the time Reno fought his fight and with Custer returning to them, trumpeter Martin is given the note and told go find your company commander and give him that note.
Certainly, there is comment by White Man Runs Him for this to have happened. This is an area of the history of study which involves Curtis's decision to protect his prime motive and income (The North American Indian project financed by J.P. Morgan during two decades) by avoiding publishing contentious battle material. The scenario would hold up under the reality of a tediously brief engagement in the valley. That may be the case but proving such would pluck a mountain of feathers which would not lightly be given up. J.S. Gray's theory was complete twaddle which has variously been continued for fourty years now and needs shooting in the head.
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 30, 2023 7:14:53 GMT -6
Surely you'll post "the bulk of the testimony"? That would help clarify your notions...which seem scattered in many directions.... Utley Luce relics Godfrey WMC Vaughn Don't just throw stuff out to see what sticks - be specific! Or are you making this up too? Maybe - maybe not - it can be read that way, or the other way as it is quoted... Q. If you can tell the distance, state how far you had gone from the watering place to the place where you could look down and see the village.A. I should judge it was about an hour and a half after we left the watering place till we got to that place.There were hills to go up and down and we could not go so fast....
You'll have to keep digging as there is much more out there...not all in agreement On going back over that ridge I looked down into the bottom, and I saw Major Reno’s battalion was engaged. I paid no further attention to it but went forward on my business. Then I went on to the edge of the stream and about 3 or 400 yards above the creek where we watered our horses I met Captain Benteen.Q. From that place where you looked down and saw Major Reno’s battalion engaged, can you tell how long it was after that before you got to Captain Benteen? A. I judge it was 15 or 20 minutes....A. We kept on General Custer’s trail, and after we got on this ridge where I saw Major Reno fighting in the bottom...{WMC though going back on Custer's trail was important}Of course they DID NOT ride straight west - no one said they did. They went to the right, then turned right even more - much more northward/parallel to the river and east of Reno Hill. See Martin. Also see Curely about the long ridge they used. These 3 all agreed on the route "exactly". See Soldier. See Goes Ahead. A. General Custer left that watering place and went about 300 yards in a straight line. Then after that he turned to the right a little more, and traveled that way four or five hundred yards. Then there was a kind of big bend on the hill. He turned these hills and went on top of the ridge.
Custer's route from this point was directly across the country, on the crest of a long ridge, running to the bluffs and coming out at a point about 500 ft. north of the Reno corral.
Knipe showed me where Custer struck across from Benteen Creek and came out at bluff. He struck edge of bluffs few hundred feet north of where Reno's afterward corraled ... Knipe says that as soon as he saw Indians on hill north of where Reno was corraled, he reported to Serg. Bobo, who reported to Harrington and Harrington to Tom Custer and Tom Custer to General Custer, General Custer immediately turning to right in direction of Indians.
4 Crows went with Custer. They were with him when he turned right off Reno's Trail...
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 30, 2023 7:21:48 GMT -6
Must you? Be sure to bring some specifics and some back-up to your notions. Try basing it on evidence and facts. Who said Custer sat there? Curtis? WMRH? Who also said they/he went back and met Benteen. Which was confirmed. Hmm...so you are right - GAC DID NOT sit anywhere too long. Makes Curtis even more iffy, huh? Martin gave him 10 minutes. Hows your timeline?
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Post by herosrest on Nov 30, 2023 13:26:17 GMT -6
I'm not sure for how to cure you of this fascination with WMC's locations information. Things happened here, there and elsewhere which are extruded in the fashion you relish of walking in WMC's footsteps, to rehash and reaffirm what is long understood about Reno Hill. It's almost as though you think solving the where will turn back the clock and you'll get to treat Custer to many rounds down at The Foggy Duck and probably pay for dinner afterwards. Mind you, that does prospect getting to meet Liz. Is that it?
Custer rode onto the bluffs and so far as we know - everything we know; he was accompanied by a trumpeter and trumpeter alone. No staff. No escort. No foragers.......... Tell me what that informs? What does it mean?
Well, he either left his command in Reno Ck. or had them in motion onto the bluffs. Note here that I did not say ' behind him'. He went up to scout the valley, eyeball Reno's front in crossing, see what was what on the backtrail and see what was downriver. He was then waving his hat at his command which we know from the trumpeter sat beside him twiddling his lips. Martin did not mention issuing orders on his trumpet and therefore the five companies were already on their way up behind Custer who turned off the trail up the bluffs to get to the first knob hill giving a decent view. That be C2 courtesy of ESC.
Thank you very much. (Bows graciously to rapturous audience, and exits stage left) Band strike up Dixie Toot.
You are going to say highest hill again, aren't you?
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Post by johnson1941 on Nov 30, 2023 14:47:53 GMT -6
Don't worry about WMC and me. Confirming distance info is EASY! Anyone with a map, or google earth, can do it - these days. Use them all to confirm those who were also actually there. Easy peasy. Solving what happened where is the fun part! Just have to trust the witnesses and its easy. AND of course - nothing personal - but I have learned NOT to trust your notions of what "is long understood" - about anything. Says who? THIS oughta be good! It means you have goofier notions then I thought. And it must have been Martin who shot at the pony stealing Rees. And Martin was the troopers the Rees/scouts following Custer ran into having issues with their horses, and avoiding the 5 Sioux. And Martin must have ran into...himself coming back up Cedar. And the following scouts and the Crow scouts were...IDK - not even there? Kanipe was sent back before Custer reached the bluffs? Where was Cooke? How did Varnum see Grays? Newell? Girard? How did Curtis even imagine the joke that is point 2 if no one was on the bluffs with Custer?? Stop - its nonsensical...even for you.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 1, 2023 5:19:16 GMT -6
It's good to see you questioning your deductions at last. I recommend a study of the history of the Maiwand Lion to sharpen those deductive powers of yours. The 7th regiments commander went onto the bluffs with a trumpeter besides him. We have the distance data relevant to the excursion from the trumpeter. There was no one else with them which has come to light unless your torch has illuminated data which has eluded everyone before for 147 x 365. If we accept the a cappella Crows (i've never thought of them as tenors) then Custer rode to them. That would mean five of them on the bluffs overlooking the valley as the regiments' right wing minus M cDoogle's company made its way up onto SSR. There was an episode mentioned by Kanipe of horses running ahead wildly and difficult to rein in. Thus it seems that Custer moved to rejoin the HQ and his staff as the companies caught him up and were reviewed as they continued on into full view of the valley and a part of the village in it. It is worth noting that Peter Thompson did not see some huge village stretching three miles down the valley at that time since the village was not that large and much of it was out of view beyond the ridge and bluffs downriver of the Weir Point spur. Now, I absolutely know that you are dying to get up onto that highest hill of yours but don't. Just forget about that complete silliness until the time is right and you actually understand that 'the' highest isn't. The command advanced on and halted and this plops into the sequence primarily from Kanipe and Martin again, with Thompsom already flailing off the rear of the column. He was with his company when Custer reviewed them but then fell out the rear. We're getting there you see, towards Benteen's 'G' which Wagner enumerated, and the south end of SSR where, by the way, there is a bloody high hill.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 1, 2023 6:05:41 GMT -6
I think you need to read better. I am questioning YOUR deductions....constantly it seems - and necessary. My retelling the facts so far have been pretty much right on. Facts always help deductions. Try it. You don't have to make stuff up. Yep I just posted that. Also see Martin and Weir's Hill and DeRudio and point 7 and the highest point. So add Kanipe to the list who corroborate it all. As only YOUR opinion keeps telling us this, yet you just can't show your opinion is correct. Ah well. You do you. SO - NO thanks! As always - I will prefer to trust those who were actually there! Especially when a dozen or so all agree. Remember - facts, not errant notions will get you through this! I do love how you constantly abandon all the silliness you put out and immediately move on. Its good to see you realize when you were mistaken. Is it just bad recall? Or wishing so much for something to be true when it just isn't? Anyway - glad I can help! Ah so it WASN'T just Custer and Martin?! I think you'll realize that it wasnt just 5 (?) of them either. So keep going. Like usual - you may just come back around! Another tip - don't forget everything else going on just to focus on one event/location/issue...It is constantly tripping you up in conflicts. Agreed. We know the view from the bluffs before and on Weir's Hill/Martin's Ridge, and even around SSH...confirmed quite nicely. Yep - Just not the highest - it IS connected to it though - by Martin Ridge. Remember how all the high points were 3500' in 1891. And there are even pictures! Great right? YES!!! I have been there all along. Welcome aboard the Point 7/G/Martins Ridge train! See!? You are almost back around already!! And you did it in ONE post! Keep going! "We soon gained the top of the bluffs where a view of the surrounding country was obtained."
Next stop - where the PS Rees crossed the high bluff! Which is a VERY short trip - right near the SAME PLACE aka Martin's Ridge!!
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Post by herosrest on Dec 1, 2023 8:46:51 GMT -6
Utley's image might just possibly date to 1926 but I doubt that quite much. Certainly there were flights over the 50th anniversary but I doubt they were imaging from the cockpit. I could be wrong but doubt it. That said, that is not aan image showing the 1876 terrain. What it is, is Utley's idea of the march and manouvre which dates back a long way to his time at the battlefield and early work published then. It will take some of the guys who ride the terrain to confirm it but I don't believe the route shown down CC to MTC and straight across to the Luce NC Calhoun route, is do-able. Of course he is just presenting the concept and it was reasonably the latest great new thing for general consumption, at the time. MTC is steep and deep sided and insurmountable to riders wishing to route across it; as CC emerges into it. So there - back to the drawing board, maybe and see what you try to fly next.
I've lifted BB's Martin stuff of Astonisher. 'Did not see Indians on ridge ... when Custer separated from Reno. Says that before Custer reached high ridge he marched in columns of twos with gray horses in center of column.3 His description of route agrees with Curley and Knipe [Sgt. Daniel Kanipe] exactly. Martin says Custer's trail passed along where Reno retreated to. Then Custer halted command on the high ridge about 10 minutes, and officers looked at village through glasses. Saw children and dogs playing among the tepees but no warriors or horses except few loose ponies grazing around. There was then a discussion among the officers as to where the warriors might be and someone suggested that they might be buffalo hunting, recalling that they had seen skinned buffalo along the trail on June 24.
Question for you. Is this stuff by WMC and Martin, a telling of the trip Martin made with Custer or is it further along the march?
You tell me which way you see it. We will probably disagree but that is the point of a discussion.
I have been checking also, to find where and when etc, Martin told WMC that Weir Hill was visited by Custer. I'd appreciate that source, please.
A ps. As far as I know still - Martin was never on the ground with WMC. A lot would clear itself up, if he was but it didn't happen as far as I have seen in researching it ------ for ever.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 1, 2023 9:12:20 GMT -6
Glad you don't think so. I think you are right it might be tough - but do-able? Dont know. MTC is steep - 'best place to cross is at mouth or further up'. This is addressed specifically - see RCOI testimony.
But didnt AZRanger say he did it? Or that Custer did? Hmm...
I have mentioned this about MTC before, but once again I made no claim about Custer command crossing it anywhere however, so...what are you on about flying what now? I do tend to think someone went over onto Greasy Grass ridge. (Might want to see Kanipe with Benteen on the 27th)
Camp Mss Field Notes John Martin Folder 3
Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it -Hunk and Blackfoot villages W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village.
Hammer has it - Custer in '76. pg 103.
Since it deals mostly with Custer re: Martin leading up to Weir's Hill and move down South Coulee, and when JM got sent back and includes what he saw of Custer withdrawal at ford/flat - I'd say there is your answer.
Be aware - Lots of little inconsistencies, in Martin.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 1, 2023 10:42:39 GMT -6
I'm not making stuff up and hence the issue with Martin and Camp - which is esentially as to whether Custer took a second observation. Curley located an observation point further downriver or did WMC make it up?
Going out of Reno Ck. Martin specifically located the observation point Custer went to.
The comment on Utley, was on Utley - you used him.
GGR roger
There's a reason that Weir's Hill was called Weir 's Hill and it has nothing to do with Custer or that phase of events prior to Company D arriving to the bluffs. You need to focus and put the time machine down. We have moved out of Reno Ck. onto the bluffs and the halt on SSR to examine various of the accounts of events. It's straightforward if kept simple. For example, does the SSR pimple offer a decent view of the valley and camp, and Reno's advance?
You've gone WMC Martin Folder 3. Good but, how did WMC get the information. If this had come from Kanipe then it is a slam dunk because they stood together on the ground. Hence we know where Kanipe departed from. This is the basis for the halt at SSR.
There are inconsistencies across the gamut of participant accounts and the best which is ever possible is darning them into a coherence. Not the coherence but a coherence because there are consistencies.
There is some evidence to support the halt at the mouth of Cedar Coulee and SSR with artifacts discovered. The early Martin stuff locates Custer observing the valley and returning to the command as it progressed to the SSR halt.
Did Custer then go to Weir's Hill or was he taking a peep from the high hill where the command waited.
After this, with Kanipe off on his way, Martin told us the orders which Custer had him call to set the command in motion. That's next but we should decide whether Custer went on Weir's Hill or not. 3411, G, WH, is a later episode which came into study with discovery of the discovery, of Benteen's map. Certainly Martin may have imparted the location of G to Benteen. It could have been Kanipe. It could have been anything because Benteen did not justify the information he put on the map.
It was here, at this time, that the last indication of Custer's intentions were left for us by Martin and everything else is supposition, guesswork, and intuition. It would be improved if we reliably had Martin's point of departure towards Benteen was solidly known and here there is an immense banana skin what, which, and however, it is considered.
Martin's Cedar Coulee point as shown on the WMC map is a real problem. So are the location of the Weir and Edgerley terrains. I know you know the map, so no need to post it up again. Since it shows the Edgerley and Weor Hills with them not supporting other info by WMC, what to make of it? Did someone add that information after WMC passed away, perhaps? Well, that would invalidate everything in all the collections and particularly because Brininstool got his hands on the stuff. Tread careful in this minefield and minefield it is because the red and blue pencil stuff has already been challenged.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 1, 2023 11:16:58 GMT -6
Side note - for info linkWilliam C. Brown - linkBrown MapWilliam C. Brown - Collections so mayne, who knows if WMC missing bits and bobs are sitting at BYU, Colarodo, Utah, or some place else or nowhere at all, at all. That is the question! Whether t'is nobler spending half yer life......... Brown played the significant role in the transfer (funding) of WMC's stuff into collections. Added Colorado - Archive grid After retirement from active duty in 1918, he assisted in the Quartermaster General's Office in Washington, D.C., engaged in historical research on military topics, and worked to promote benefits for retired military personnel. including Brown's inventions and Walter M. Camp's manuscript notes concerning the Indian Wars (papers acquired by Brown in 1933); files on Congressional legislation efforts for retired veterans' benefits, particularly financial aid and promotions; printed materials, including government and military publications, journals newspapers, pamphlets, and books; travel memorabilia and information; special maps; and photographs 145 linear ft. (58 boxes) Brown is a rich topic.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 1, 2023 12:10:36 GMT -6
WoWOdds and ends - Medicine Tail's 7th Cavalry flag. I believe this to be so and am wondering how WMC came to have an image of it. link.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 1, 2023 12:41:14 GMT -6
Well understood as I have said SO many times. So I do not get your point about a time machine? See Edgerly re the highest point point 7, Weir, etc.
What halt on SSR? Who says this?
You should be more specific if you know something no one else, especially those who were there, mentions.
Of course. It is well documented by numerous witnesses - that he went to the highest point, saw the village (part of it), waved/cheered whatever. The highest point Aka Point 7. Aka Weir's Hill. Aka G. Other things happened there too of course. As I have provided numerous times. Benteen too confirms this G as "Point where Custer 1st saw the village". Martin DeRudio Kanipe - all agree so it could have been all of them.
Once again - if you know something no one else does please be specific. Because everyone who was there all confirm each other. As does WMC. We too know where Cedar is. See point 8 too.
Please post something specific. Seems you are wondering and wandering again - with no facts. WMC also supports Edgerly and Weir's Hill and Edgerly peaks. He quotes much of Edgerly in fact. Among others who corrborate it all. See Hare. See Wylie. Etc.
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