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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 11:53:13 GMT -6
There's a rub to your expressed view of the Weir's Hill episodes as significant, which is the dallying hidden away behind Horizon Ridge as the death knell ripped through the five companies downriver. Sitting tight and closing up, fine. Concentrate strength before moving to support or attack downriver. However, leaving those five companies without knowledge of Reno and Benteen's whereabouts sealed their fate. Benteen's command on Horizon Ridge ASAP would have informed Custer and allowed retreat ont0 Reno. Kuhlman impertinently blamed as the disaster on Weir for WHEN Company D finally arrived in view of Custer's Battleground. I hope the guy is enjoying eternity in hell. Let's maybe see what you make of the fun at Medicine Tail's Creek as to Whether 7th Cavalry went up it, down it, across it, or just flew on by. HAND DRAWN MAP Lt Roe 1881 interviewed Curley. Roe drew a map of the troops leaving MTC. This drawing shows troops moving up to Luce, Butler, Greasy Grass Hill and beyond. Complies with the Curtis Map showing the man Custer's movement down at B and bump over to GGH. I to Luce L to Butler C bumps over to GGH E and F portion with HQ, leave river fords to GGH Gerry None other than the honorable James S. Hutchins. acquired from the Curtis papers, a type written carbon copy with maps in ink. Curley's story of the BLBH, interpreter "Leforgey" Thomas H. LeForge, as recorded by 1st LT Charles R. Roe, Fort Custer March 8, 1881 Roe says "a copy to the Army & Navy Journal, for publication, March 10th, '82." Ref: "The Papers of Edward S. Curtis relating to the Custer;s Last Battle", Introduced and edited by James S. Hutchins, Upton and Sons 2000 Gerry The Custer Massacre - ANJ v.19 1881/82
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Post by herosrest on Dec 2, 2023 12:07:58 GMT -6
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 2, 2023 12:13:26 GMT -6
Good point. Would you blame Reno and/or Benteen? Benteen was at the Point briefly - maybe he saw it was too late? He advised Reno about the threat their command faced. Also Moylan and the packtrain had their own inherent issues attached. It was very melancholy reading a book where Custer likely saw Weirs advance on the point, but what must have set in when he realized/they would not come/came no closer. WMC also had a big issue that Reno sent no one - even just a scout or 2 - the short distance up to WH or SSH to see what they could see in Custers direction. When there was little/no opposition. The Roe map? Is it in the link? Sounds familiar so I likely have a copy on my pc. Hardly. Good at launching a nice heavy 405gr projectile…good luck hitting anything after 800yards, which is “pretty long range”. 1500yards? Double Good luck, Carlos Hathcock. A. With regard to the 1500 yards of the carbine, I did not mean that it would shoot accurately that distance but that it would throw a ball that far. Q) How far will a Springfield carbine shoot with reasonable accuracy? A) About a thousand yards.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 3, 2023 13:39:40 GMT -6
There was a debate after this campaign about firepower and rapid fire weapons attributed to red force versus the army issue Springfield. Tests were done and i'm scratching my head.... does creigmore ring a bell. Drat, memory is so fickle. Erm...... Sandy Hook tests. Hitting anything at those ranges would be a test and I guess that is why volleys could be fired. Just a thought - if you really, positively, wanted to send a message and had no artillery. I wonder how far the gatling rounds went. One was left on the deck of Far West at Powder River according to Conquest of the Missourri and used to fill pillows by blasting away at geese on the riverbanks. Bored nutjobs. I read somewhere that it was the band members who helped crew the boat. Just one of those silly things to keep an eye out for. In terms of the battle my thoughts run along lines of a quick and dirty wipeout and Marquis's slow fightin is the stuff of fluffy pillows. Hold and consolidate the command at the retreat bluffs - no problem. There's a discussion to be had about the level of threat at any time, to the packtrain and rearguard, and also the laying to rest of anyone's idea that Benteen was meant to go to the bluffs and onwards to Custer east of the river. When Martin was sent back, Custer's clear intention expressed to the five companies was make a crossing and capture the village. You accept Martin warts and all or start dreaming stuff up. Reno should have been ascertaining information about the terrain beyond Horizon Ridge, showing Keogh, Yates and Custer, where he and Benteen were; and getting that command ready to receive the five companies. He mentioned this at Chicago in his testimony but obscurely. There is no excuse for 'hiding' where he did and not informing Custer urgently and all that required was some guidons on Weir Point. Of course he would then have to signal - ' No George - You come here. There was data drop and discussion type thing involving Wagner way back which procuced THIS image view from Benteen Hill as he called it. I link also GE IMAGE for views from Curtis's '2' on the bluffs. It's just for information. I am a fan of Curtis's general thrust although have some issues with timing the WMRH angle and also, the actual basic information as presented to Viola at SI. I don't think that is quite worth getting into without doing the whole Crow Scout thing and that always ends up dog chasing its tail 'cos of good old Joe. There was something else...... Lunch at The Myllet Arms has tired me out. TV sports screens allover, kids indoor bouncy playroom and running amok the tables, the carvery over run by a que almost out the door 'cos the food is so good, and the wittering which just went on, and on and on; and the car offside door handle broken, and women drivers who know what they are doing when they cannot see a vehicle about to ram us. Sheesh - just the normal noises/ Yes... you might enjoy this. We have given the battle the wrong name. How about that. Here are Walter and Charles. Quite a page of notes source L. Tom Perry Special Collections Walter Mason Camp interview with Charles F. Roe Page 10 - PostimageMWC Roe - December 8 1910 I'm done for the day. Regards
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Post by herosrest on Dec 3, 2023 13:46:33 GMT -6
It's Criedmore, isn't it. Creidmore........... Done.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 3, 2023 15:45:51 GMT -6
Those Sandy Hook tests were wild!
Interesting - looks like the 1881 Gatlings used .45-70. Before that they were paper cartridges!
Dont think they offered much other then rapid multi-fire....42 caliber before .45?
They certainly would have been worthless in General George Crook’s Tonto Basin campaign in 1872-1873 or his Sierra Madre Campaigns in the 1880s. General Nelson Miles declared them worthless for Indian fighting, saying “the range was no longer than the rifle and the bullets so small you couldn’t tell where they strike.” They jammed easily from the black powder and overheated too.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 4, 2023 5:08:44 GMT -6
One of the Battle's more enthusiastic fans.The Battle of Green Grass Creek............. I like it. There is comment that Keogh would have had three companies through seniority and indeed he did. It's just that one of them, Company B, had been detached on rearguard duty. Thus, a subtle manipulation has begun which is actually a snowball on the move. He presents it very well, does he not? I have decided to launch one of my li'l curve balls based upon Donahues generally very valid discussions of route and the split near the river. Therefore, the evidence of fighting which E.S. Luce discovered during the 1940's is related to the advance and skirmishing undertaken by Lt. Edgerley leading Company D towards Custer's five companies. What? Just say what again.......... My own model of this involves a flanking party onto Luces' terrain, which was then reinforced by a detail ala Bradon in 1873 I would love for the cartridge relics which Luce discovered to be compared with those found at the Company D entrenchment. That would resolve what might seem to be a whackey idea which is entirely realistic in being consistant with crossing the river and capturing the village.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 4, 2023 6:22:22 GMT -6
Donahue always has good stuff - whether you buy in completely, or not. He has lots of good info. I do like his take on not getting stuck on using modern concepts/tactics to decide what Custer would have done, vs what he did based on primary statements.
I could buy into that Custer troops were already across Dry Creek before going up to Luce....why not? That would make the crossing of MTC make more sense due the trouble they may have had/would have crossing higher up as we discussed.
There were several descriptions of Custer' trail being in a circle - as this would help explain if one group went up and over and one went over and up.
400-800 cartridges - that isn't minor.
Edgerly vs Luce...That would indeed be interesting.
You need to find evidence of D going that far down the northerly coulee (not that wierd) before turning back and around; but also substantially engaging - at the least firing across, MTC. But wouldn't account for soldier cartridges up there, would it? D would have had to cross, where it was hard to cross. AND remain there some time before crossing back, circling back around to the ridge and advancing to and dismountig at Edgerly Peaks/Cresecent.
Good luck!
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Post by herosrest on Dec 4, 2023 7:02:02 GMT -6
It's a theory built on possibility rather than sound knowledge but these are the slippery slopes on greasy green grass. It was possible. Much more likely is a detail and then detachment of 20 men deployed into the Luce terrain as fighting began. There is an inventory of stuff found along the ridges which Greene put together during his time with NPS there and published in the Enigma book, which can be loaned online at Archive.org lasttime I was there. Wagner did inventories as well which are across the boards a he trawled for info from buffs. No one is ever going to nail this down - it is jelly of many flavours depending upon whose views and experience is considered. Godfrey is a fine example in that he was not exactly going to drop himself or battalion into swirling waters and the five companies far from the river, was all him and Benteen. Donahue blaming Curley for the information is one of his larger mie-directs. The 'far from the river' route supported by Cheyenne testimony; suited Godfrey and Benteen right down to the highest clouds. That theory was embedded by them and began in early 1879. Donahue knows better and thus I can but salute him I link the Roe map again link which came to me from discussions and work with Gerry Shultz who knew a ton of stuff along the lines of Doran, and was one hell of a researcher without pretention. He worked the annual shows in the valley and specialised in Peter Thompson. Quote: 'HAND DRAWN MAP Lt Roe 1881 interviewed Curley. Roe drew a map of the troops leaving MTC. This drawing shows troops moving up to Luce, Butler, Greasy Grass Hill and beyond. Complies with the Curtis Map showing the man Custer's movement down at B and bump over to GGH. I to Luce L to Butler C bumps over to GGH E and F portion with HQ, leave river fords to GGH Gerry None other than the honorable James S. Hutchins. acquired from the Curtis papers, a type written carbon copy with maps in ink. Curley's story of the BLBH, interpreter "Leforgey" Thomas H. LeForge, as recorded by 1st LT Charles R. Roe, Fort Custer March 8, 1881 Roe says "a copy to the Army & Navy Journal, for publication, March 10th, '82." Ref: "The Papers of Edward S. Curtis relating to the Custer;s Last Battle", Introduced and edited by James S. Hutchins, Upton and Sons 2000 Gerry We were working opposite ends of the Curtis puzzle, when he surprised me with this. I have absolutely no reason to doubt him. Here is some of his stuff and here Polf Design. In thinking those movements through, companies have backtracked up the creek to spray west in echelon. There is some theory for this have taken place and published in 1890 by Charles King. One consequence of that, was Godfrey's 1892 article on the battle because King T'd off Custer's wife. This is the Custer retreated - ran away idea which no-one was happy with unless Indian or Confederate. I've kicked it around long time and basically it works as a theory but isn't what anyone is interested in. Echelon is a pretty basic formation and the way a lot of commanders would deploy across that terrain once poop started hiiting the green grass.
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 6, 2023 9:23:13 GMT -6
(PART OF) Curley’s Narrative, w/Roe ... The Sioux could be seen mounting and coming towards Custer, and commenced to fire. The Sioux commenced the firing and the troops fired back, remaining mounted; that is, only the front part of the line fired, the line (or column -R.) was stretched up deep coulee, and away back on side of ridge. The Sioux were not surprised, but acted like they knew they were coming. The troops then turned from the mouth of coulee (ravine) at the river, and turned. The men in the lead motioning with their hands to go northeast, when the companies broke from the main column as if to meet on the main ridge again; while the companies were moving, the Indians crossed the river at the mouth of Coulee and further below, about opposite Custer point, and all along the river below Custer. They rode right up to the command, firing all the time, plenty of them. The troops fought on the ridge, firing Into the Indians as they came across the river and up the slopes. The soldiers kept firing all the time while they were moving from mouth of coulee. The Sioux got after the Crows and ran them away back to pack train, this side of Ash Creek, half a mile from Little Horn. The Sioux got all around Custer’s command, behind him, etc. After getting to the pack train I (Curley) left the other scouts and came back to one of the ridges behind where Custer was fighting, a little higher ridge. I took out my glasses and saw there was no one moving, no firing, and the troops all appeared to be killed. There were Indians moving all around me. I remained there a little while, saw the Indians fighting Reno, who had got on to the hill. Reno’s command moved out of timber (west side of Little Horn) and was running back, same time Crows were running back (on east side of Little Horn) driven by the Sioux. I could see them (Reno’s men) running, while Crows were running. When I got back to hill in rear of Custer I could see Reno’s men coming up on top of hill and saw them firing. Reno’s men ran from timber about same time Custer’s command turned from mouth of deep coulee, and same time Crows ran back. (From point of timber to mouth of coulee is about three miles.) I (Curley) think it was about two hours from time command turned from deep coulee until 1 came back and they were all killed. I saw a good many men killed while they were moving from mouth of coulee back, obliquely. All I saw were killed north side of coulee. I heard plenty of firing way behind ridge I was on, but did not see any one leave Custer’s field at all, they must have gone there - ridge behind which I was on - before I came back. I heard firing up Little Creek, but there was no firing where Custer was. I could see from where I was, the Sioux moving around among the dead bodies, picking up things, some on foot and some mounted. ...
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Post by herosrest on Dec 6, 2023 15:11:14 GMT -6
It's one of lots of the stuff which is rolled into theories and flavours to suit opinion and interests of those with opinions and interest in the battle. I bumped some good images linkMoreand HEREAnother giving an idea of the work done grading embankments link
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Post by herosrest on Dec 6, 2023 15:22:16 GMT -6
The battle began settling down until about 1890, but Terry passed away and a few unfortunate comments started the feuds up all over again. This contributed to it Custer's Last Battle by Charles King. Two year's later Godfrey responded with his own work using the same title. Godfrey's work is know and remembered. King's went into obscurity. Regards,
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Post by herosrest on Dec 9, 2023 17:13:25 GMT -6
Again, Benteen after telling how he had planted a guidon on a high point, stated positively that he knew that the Custer battlefield was not in sight from that point although he admitted that some of the other officers did not agree with him.” While we do not know for sure, just what point Benteen referred it was probably the one which today is designated Weir Point, so that today’s visitor to the battlefield can indulge in a little historical research by taking a look for himself. The battlefield is visible from Weir's Point and from several less elevated points in the vicinity, and with the naked eye. With an ordinary pair of field glasses, rather insignificant details can be made out with ease. EIS Source - The Montana Magazine of History 1952-07: Vol 2 Iss 3 Publication date 1952-07 - page 38. Link for login or signup. Edgar Irving Stewart
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Post by johnson1941 on Dec 10, 2023 8:34:35 GMT -6
If Benteen was correct - and it seems he was, then it wasnt Weir Point he was referring to.
Weird IF it ws at WP and he completely denied seeing anything/hearing anything of custer - while Weir and Wylie were watching the end through glasses at the crescent. (Edgerly said the firing had almost ceased before he even headed out, but also saw Indians firing into objects on the ground from 'the ridge').
{Interesting Edgerly says 4 or 5 indians were firing ‘at short range’ when they 1st came up to Reno that were chased away; Benteen says they were on 'the highest point' - 'nearly a mile away (its around 3/4mi to WH from Corral, a bit farther from where Benteen 1st met Reno}
Maybe it comes down to more confusion between the high points, and which one one was thinking of. Benteen may refer to a couple. Yet Benteen was crytsal when discussing the view, AND he confirmed that view (and height) several times after; he refers to point 7 as the highest,as Martin and DeRudio did. Also helps to check other details, like references distances given. It sounds like WH. Knowing for sure (and not just what has been accepted) would help shed light on any troop advance any distance past WP.
Reno likely wasnt on Edgelry Peaks - yet he confirmed a guidon being planted on Capt Weir's Hill, and himself going 'to the summit of the highest bluff', directing the advance and retreat; and we know he was up there with Benteen - 1/2mile behind the advance at WP.
Interesting stuff.
Benteen A. The troops were by file on a line of river bluffs and, as I have stated, another company was formed at right angles on another ridge. I planted a guidon at the highest point that looked over that country. Some of the officers say that the battlefield was in sight, but I know positively that it was not, having gone over it two or three times since. Q. State whether at that highest point you saw any evidence of fighting or hear the sounds of any firing. A. I saw no such evidence nor heard any firing. Q. What was the purpose of placing the guidon on that high point? A. To present an object to attract the attention of General Custer’s command, if it was in sight. Q. Then in your opinion his command was then alive? A. I thought so. ... Q. When you met Trumpeter Martin did he report to you on which side of the river General Custer’s column was? A. Not at that time. He did after we had reached that highest point at the figure “7.” He then pointed out the place from which he had been sent back.
Reno Q. Do you remember about a guidon being placed at a point termed Captain Weir’s hill? A. It was done. Q. For what purpose and when? A. It was thought it might be discovered by the scattered men and detachments. It was done at the suggestion of Captain Benteen, I think he did it. Q. What time was that? A. I can’t state the hour. It was after the command started down the river on the 25th of June 1876. ... Q. This guidon you speak of being planted as a rallying point for someone, where was it planted? A. On the top of the highest hill. It was thought its fluttering might attract attention sooner than a horse. Q. How long did it remain there? A. I don’t know. I cannot be accurate as to time. I do not think anyone can.
Report I moved to the summit of the highest bluff, but seeing and hearing nothing sent Captain Weir with his company to open communication with him. He soon sent word by Lieutenant Hare that he could go no farther, and that the Indians were getting around him. At this time he was keeping up a heavy fire from his skirmish line. I at once turned everything back to the first position I had taken on the bluffs...
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Post by herosrest on Dec 11, 2023 6:54:58 GMT -6
Brig. Gen F.W. Benteen was assigned command of a battalion comprising Troops D, H and K, tasked with searching on the left flank of 7th Cavalry and securing any possible escape route. I fear that you place to much store in the self interests practiced at Chicago which any student of humanity clearly see through, today. There were outright misdirecions, subtle unreality and agreements by disagreement over matters central to time and place in direct response to Reno and Benteen's chief accuser whose complaints were a matter of published record and directly responsible for the attempt to avoid investigation by highest authority. Tread wary around the Chicago investigation. As far as the army were concerned, there was no issue with a straight forward military disaster which had been recovered from, and was actually the way of life and the world. The army were principally engaged in negating budgetary setbacks throughout that period and simply wanted such difficulties as that presented by the Terry disaster - swept away and forgotten. This is perfectly normal and the cloak under which Reno found he could deflect criticism and maintain foibles. As I understand the late 1878 wibbly wobbly, Reno was not a serving officer and not with 7th Cavalry even at the time of the inquiry in Chicago. That means that he could have appeared before King with a big red nose and spotted gown if he had wanted to. I find it remarkable that he did not deploy that stunt. As to the highest and the banner waved from it, Sitting Bull saw it. We know this from various accounts but the question is which banner did he see. Anyway, it emerged subsequently with Reno departed the army after refusing the splendid offer to reign rather be dismissed, that he felt Custer was a yallow coward. This was heavily reported in press as various bills for reinstatement were dealt with right up until the end. He was quite a guy an I imagine him immensely frustrated at his turn of events. It can be strongly argued Reno did not send Weir to open communications with Custer until after Company D had departed and moved beyond Horizon Ridge, and thus lied in respect of this matter and continued that aspect of the affair at Chicago. This may have been in a sense of loyalty towards Weir given his demise not long after the battle, in New York. We know from Reno's major accuser of wrongdoing on 25th June, 1876, that he was in New York at the time Col. Weir died, which is a seriously interesting matter long ignored. Reno shortly afterwards managed to avail himself of Emilie's ire, in preparation for his visit to Chicago early in 1879. Research at 'Men with Custer' - Company F, 7th Cavalry. Capt. Bell in command. Item - A Seventh Cavalry Scandal by Stephen E. Osman
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