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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 7, 2022 5:18:34 GMT -6
Yes, I think so. F, E and HQ stayed behind covering CIL's retreat. Company L (I) think was leading the retreat. He got to CH and went down the slope. At that moment Calhoun saw some warriors coming from the south. He formed a skirmish line because he'd think a couple of volleys would scatter them and he could get past them. Realizing that it was not possible because the indians offered much more resistance than he could pass, he turned around and climbed to the top of CH thinking that with the help of I and C they could stop them. While under attack, and suffering casualties, sending away 60% percent of your combat strength one company at the time (with L heading off in front of the two others, while they all were suffering casulaties) strikes me as strange. But okay, to each his own, I have as I have said many times before no "emotional investment" in the battle and genuinly like hearing others' opinion, so I will ofc respect yours as I always do and will continue to Geir When he organized the retreat, he was not under furious attack. But if he saw enemies on the other side of the river, it´s prudent to take the dominant heights (Cemetery and BRE), while CIL retreats. I think that idea is the best he had all day. Stay on the heights and withdraw CIL to the south. The next step would be to occupy Nye and Luce Ridge by CIL, to cover the withdrawal of E, F and HQ. Everything went wrong for him. He didn't count on the arrival of Sioux from the south that managed to stop CIL's withdrawal. From there everything fell apart.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2022 6:09:22 GMT -6
While under attack, and suffering casualties, sending away 60% percent of your combat strength one company at the time (with L heading off in front of the two others, while they all were suffering casulaties) strikes me as strange. But okay, to each his own, I have as I have said many times before no "emotional investment" in the battle and genuinly like hearing others' opinion, so I will ofc respect yours as I always do and will continue to Geir When he organized the retreat, he was not under furious attack. But if he saw enemies on the other side of the river, it´s prudent to take the dominant heights (Cemetery and BRE), while CIL retreats. I think that idea is the best he had all day. Stay on the heights and withdraw CIL to the south. The next step would be to occupy Nye and Luce Ridge by CIL, to cover the withdrawal of E, F and HQ. Everything went wrong for him. He didn't count on the arrival of Sioux from the south that managed to stop CIL's withdrawal. From there everything fell apart. Let me address your three posts in a single one. From the very first, Custer's concern was that the warriors wouldn't do battle. His initial split of Benteen was in part motivated by that, IMHO. The report "There are your indians, running like the devil" would have validated that theme for Custer. Thus, he was focused on dealing with an escape of his quarry. I believe that the archaeology and indian accounts clearly show that Custer separated into two wings (EF and CIL), and that the former approached Ford B. I believe that was done because he was looking for a way to support and exploit the confusion of Reno's charge. The obvious way would be to threaten the women and children of the village, who he believed where racing downriver. Ford B was still within the village, and so I believe he placed Keogh's wing in a reasonable position (having at that time no immediate threat from warriors) and moved downstream, eventually to Ford D. I believe he was with EF all along, all through the action. When he determined that there was a crossing (Ford D) available, he moved EF to nearby heights and waited for Benteen and the pack train to come up. At that moment, he was still not under pressure, but there was growing pressure on CIL, the wing closest to the warriors who had confronted Reno, from warriors who changed their focus now to the remainder of the command. Three individual riders moved between Benteen's rough area and Custer without encountering any significant warrior strength; the two messengers and Boston Custer. To me that shows that when the decision to keep the wings separate and use EF to "recon in force" to Ford D was reasonable. I believe that if Custer felt that a retreat was necessary he would have done so with all five companies. If he felt he could not ride out as a unit, then I believe he would have emplaced with five companies, not split and left behind a group smaller than the Reno command that had been routed earlier, while one roughly the size of Renos then tried to make it out on their own. Still, as Noggy said, everyone is entitled to their own view here.
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 7, 2022 7:38:13 GMT -6
When he organized the retreat, he was not under furious attack. But if he saw enemies on the other side of the river, it´s prudent to take the dominant heights (Cemetery and BRE), while CIL retreats. I think that idea is the best he had all day. Stay on the heights and withdraw CIL to the south. The next step would be to occupy Nye and Luce Ridge by CIL, to cover the withdrawal of E, F and HQ. Everything went wrong for him. He didn't count on the arrival of Sioux from the south that managed to stop CIL's withdrawal. From there everything fell apart. Let me address your three posts in a single one. From the very first, Custer's concern was that the warriors wouldn't do battle. His initial split of Benteen was in part motivated by that, IMHO. The report "There are your indians, running like the devil" would have validated that theme for Custer. Thus, he was focused on dealing with an escape of his quarry. I believe that the archaeology and indian accounts clearly show that Custer separated into two wings (EF and CIL), and that the former approached Ford B. I believe that was done because he was looking for a way to support and exploit the confusion of Reno's charge. The obvious way would be to threaten the women and children of the village, who he believed where racing downriver. Ford B was still within the village, and so I believe he placed Keogh's wing in a reasonable position (having at that time no immediate threat from warriors) and moved downstream, eventually to Ford D. I believe he was with EF all along, all through the action. When he determined that there was a crossing (Ford D) available, he moved EF to nearby heights and waited for Benteen and the pack train to come up. At that moment, he was still not under pressure, but there was growing pressure on CIL, the wing closest to the warriors who had confronted Reno, from warriors who changed their focus now to the remainder of the command. Three individual riders moved between Benteen's rough area and Custer without encountering any significant warrior strength; the two messengers and Boston Custer. To me that shows that when the decision to keep the wings separate and use EF to "recon in force" to Ford D was reasonable. I believe that if Custer felt that a retreat was necessary he would have done so with all five companies. If he felt he could not ride out as a unit, then I believe he would have emplaced with five companies, not split and left behind a group smaller than the Reno command that had been routed earlier, while one roughly the size of Renos then tried to make it out on their own. Still, as Noggy said, everyone is entitled to their own view here. No, I don´t agree at all with your assessments (friendly of course). I agree that Custer thought the indians were on the run. He thought about it until he saw them throw themselves at him and he had no time but to try to retreat. Neither the Indian accounts nor the archeology prove any of this that you say: "I believe that the archeology and indian accounts clearly show that Custer separated into two wings (EF and CIL), and that the former approached Ford B". The accounts say that two groups were formed. I think one went down to the river by Medicine Tail Coulle and the other by Nye and Luce Ridge. they then united at Battle Ridge before continuing the five Companies north towards Ford D. I've already written this here several times; how could Custer be so inept to leave L in the middle of a slope on Calhoun Hill? How can Custer be so inept to leave I on the other side of Battle Ridge in a hollow where he has no vision but to the east? How is Benteen going to wait when he knows he is at least an hour behind? How can you think that he can get the mule train there in less than an hour and a half or two hours? Custer didn't need Benteen there two hours later for nothing. The arrival of his brother Boston could be very negative in the final course of the fight. From his brother he learned that Martini and Kanipee had passed through and that the area was free of indians. For that reason I believe that I decided to retire to the south. Had he known the Sioux were coming from the south he would have retreated east.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2022 7:40:58 GMT -6
Let me address your three posts in a single one. From the very first, Custer's concern was that the warriors wouldn't do battle. His initial split of Benteen was in part motivated by that, IMHO. The report "There are your indians, running like the devil" would have validated that theme for Custer. Thus, he was focused on dealing with an escape of his quarry. I believe that the archaeology and indian accounts clearly show that Custer separated into two wings (EF and CIL), and that the former approached Ford B. I believe that was done because he was looking for a way to support and exploit the confusion of Reno's charge. The obvious way would be to threaten the women and children of the village, who he believed where racing downriver. Ford B was still within the village, and so I believe he placed Keogh's wing in a reasonable position (having at that time no immediate threat from warriors) and moved downstream, eventually to Ford D. I believe he was with EF all along, all through the action. When he determined that there was a crossing (Ford D) available, he moved EF to nearby heights and waited for Benteen and the pack train to come up. At that moment, he was still not under pressure, but there was growing pressure on CIL, the wing closest to the warriors who had confronted Reno, from warriors who changed their focus now to the remainder of the command. Three individual riders moved between Benteen's rough area and Custer without encountering any significant warrior strength; the two messengers and Boston Custer. To me that shows that when the decision to keep the wings separate and use EF to "recon in force" to Ford D was reasonable. I believe that if Custer felt that a retreat was necessary he would have done so with all five companies. If he felt he could not ride out as a unit, then I believe he would have emplaced with five companies, not split and left behind a group smaller than the Reno command that had been routed earlier, while one roughly the size of Renos then tried to make it out on their own. Still, as Noggy said, everyone is entitled to their own view here. No, I don´t agree at all with your assessments (friendly of course). I agree that Custer thought the indians were on the run. He thought about it until he saw them throw themselves at him and he had no time but to try to retreat. Neither the Indian accounts nor the archeology prove any of this that you say: "I believe that the archeology and indian accounts clearly show that Custer separated into two wings (EF and CIL), and that the former approached Ford B". The accounts say that two groups were formed. I think one went down to the river by Medicine Tail Coulle and the other by Nye and Luce Ridge. they then united at Battle Ridge before continuing the five Companies north towards Ford D. I've already written this here several times; how could Custer be so inept to leave L in the middle of a slope on Calhoun Hill? How can Custer be so inept to leave I on the other side of Battle Ridge in a hollow where he has no vision but to the east? How is Benteen going to wait when he knows he is at least an hour behind? How can you think that he can get the mule train there in less than an hour and a half or two hours? Custer didn't need Benteen there two hours later for nothing. The arrival of his brother Boston could be very negative in the final course of the fight. From his brother he learned that Martini and Kanipee had passed through and that the area was free of indians. For that reason I believe that I decided to retire to the south. Had he known the Sioux were coming from the south he would have retreated east. We'll just have to agree to disagree, which is fine in a situation where interpreting little things is the only way to advance our collective thinking.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 7, 2022 7:42:21 GMT -6
There is some that say GAC separated his battalion into two smaller battalions in MTC, the route taken by one (probably I-L-C) went straight across the coulee and up to Luce ridge, leaving a trail of cartridges as they went. I suppose that keeping the battalion en-mass is a bad move in such a small area like a coulee, moving in two was the safer option. This option could have stayed in place for the rest of the move to the northern fords, but the two battalions kept close after they reached battle ridge then they could move together with Yates and Smith being in the lead. Once they reached the hights over looking the flats at ford D, only Yates and Smith may have ventured down with the RHQ and I-L-C was the protection battalion. Yates and Smith could have ventured down Crazy Horse Ravine and returned this way once repulsed, as Kellogg’s body was found in this area, so they were under pressure. This is why I think that at least one of the companies from I-L-C, was in skirmish order. AZ Ranger has more to say on this portion of the field than me, he states that a skirmish line could have been on BRE and facing north or north east as cartridge finds show that spent cartridges from a carbine was found on this area and near Calhoun Hill. AZ has more to say on this theory here linkThe two-battalion configuration would allow for the pull back by the largest battalion but taken in stages in this order, L-C-I. I think that going one by one would give them more time as leaving en-mass would allow the Indians to rush them from behind with no fall-back position to move too. So we could have a situation with Yates and Smith delaying the encroaching Indians whilst the others moved back. The idea could have been a defensive position on Ney/Cartwright Ridge to cover the following companies as they moved across deep coulee. Custer may have realised that the threat behind him because of the ford (B), would be a danger point which needed to be addressed. Ian
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 7, 2022 7:43:54 GMT -6
"LOL" Pachi, you got in before me Ian
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 7, 2022 7:50:23 GMT -6
Custer was well aware of the shape of the pack train, a lot of the mules were untrained. The mules were well and trully knackered by the time the reached Reno, so asking them to move over the bluffs to reach battle ridge would be crazy. That move over the bluffs cost enough in troopers dropping out, so the mules wouldn't cut it. This is why I don't belive that they expected Benteen to turn up, plus who knows how long it could have taken them to get there as it was hit and miss that Martini would find the Benteen battalion straight away.
I do believe that GAC took five companies to fight, as Reno was and what he expected Benteen to do, so why stop the momentum on battle ridge.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Jul 7, 2022 10:53:03 GMT -6
While under attack, and suffering casualties, sending away 60% percent of your combat strength one company at the time (with L heading off in front of the two others, while they all were suffering casulaties) strikes me as strange. But okay, to each his own, I have as I have said many times before no "emotional investment" in the battle and genuinly like hearing others' opinion, so I will ofc respect yours as I always do and will continue to Geir When he organized the retreat, he was not under furious attack. But if he saw enemies on the other side of the river, it´s prudent to take the dominant heights (Cemetery and BRE), while CIL retreats. I think that idea is the best he had all day. Stay on the heights and withdraw CIL to the south. The next step would be to occupy Nye and Luce Ridge by CIL, to cover the withdrawal of E, F and HQ. Everything went wrong for him. He didn't count on the arrival of Sioux from the south that managed to stop CIL's withdrawal. From there everything fell apart. At least 10 killed from C-I-L in that small area, including Tom Custer, indicates that in it at was not a very nice place to be, if we believe all 5 Companies where there. It is roughly 1/3 of what Reno's wild escape suffered when they could barely defend themselves. Especially when in such a scenario we would assume people from E-F would also most likely have been killed around the same time, we might be talking about 10% of GAC's fighting force. So to me that would indicate heavy fire/fighting and, again, it would to me be strange to send off 60 percent of your strength if so. Also keeping HQ in the line of fire with the remaining 40% seems strange, even if he himself would have wanted to be there in such a scenario. But hey; we'll never know. Geir
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 7, 2022 12:58:57 GMT -6
When he organized the retreat, he was not under furious attack. But if he saw enemies on the other side of the river, it´s prudent to take the dominant heights (Cemetery and BRE), while CIL retreats. I think that idea is the best he had all day. Stay on the heights and withdraw CIL to the south. The next step would be to occupy Nye and Luce Ridge by CIL, to cover the withdrawal of E, F and HQ. Everything went wrong for him. He didn't count on the arrival of Sioux from the south that managed to stop CIL's withdrawal. From there everything fell apart. At least 10 killed from C-I-L in that small area, including Tom Custer, indicates that in it at was not a very nice place to be, if we believe all 5 Companies where there. It is roughly 1/3 of what Reno's wild escape suffered when they could barely defend themselves. Especially when in such a scenario we would assume people from E-F would also most likely have been killed around the same time, we might be talking about 10% of GAC's fighting force. So to me that would indicate heavy fire/fighting and, again, it would to me be strange to send off 60 percent of your strength if so. Also keeping HQ in the line of fire with the remaining 40% seems strange, even if he himself would have wanted to be there in such a scenario. But hey; we'll never know. Geir No, I don't see it that way. When withdrawal was organized E, F and HQ stayed behind. CIL rode south until they were stopped at the end of Battle Ridge. In those moments when L was fighting in CH, E, F and HQ were not under pressure. The ten deaths of CIL in Custer Hill could be for several reasons. They may be stragglers who made it that far and they may be Battle Ridge survivors who managed to retreat to Custer Hill.
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Post by noggy on Jul 8, 2022 16:16:09 GMT -6
At least 10 killed from C-I-L in that small area, including Tom Custer, indicates that in it at was not a very nice place to be, if we believe all 5 Companies where there. It is roughly 1/3 of what Reno's wild escape suffered when they could barely defend themselves. Especially when in such a scenario we would assume people from E-F would also most likely have been killed around the same time, we might be talking about 10% of GAC's fighting force. So to me that would indicate heavy fire/fighting and, again, it would to me be strange to send off 60 percent of your strength if so. Also keeping HQ in the line of fire with the remaining 40% seems strange, even if he himself would have wanted to be there in such a scenario. But hey; we'll never know. Geir No, I don't see it that way. When withdrawal was organized E, F and HQ stayed behind. CIL rode south until they were stopped at the end of Battle Ridge. In those moments when L was fighting in CH, E, F and HQ were not under pressure. The ten deaths of CIL in Custer Hill could be for several reasons. They may be stragglers who made it that far and they may be Battle Ridge survivors who managed to retreat to Custer Hill. I'm no military genius, but HQ acting as a rearguard while the larger body of an outfit retreats does not sound like standard procedure? Geir
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 9, 2022 5:34:51 GMT -6
No, I don't see it that way. When withdrawal was organized E, F and HQ stayed behind. CIL rode south until they were stopped at the end of Battle Ridge. In those moments when L was fighting in CH, E, F and HQ were not under pressure. The ten deaths of CIL in Custer Hill could be for several reasons. They may be stragglers who made it that far and they may be Battle Ridge survivors who managed to retreat to Custer Hill. I'm no military genius, but HQ acting as a rearguard while the larger body of an outfit retreats does not sound like standard procedure? Geir This was not the movement of any Regiment, Division or Army Corps. It was the withdrawal of a small military detachment of just over two hundred men. I think that Custer was there I see it according to his personality. I've gotten you into trouble, I'll get you out. As a sort of ship Captain, he´s the last to leave. He could better run everything from there than from Calhoun Hill.
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 9, 2022 7:39:46 GMT -6
Army doctrine, both then and now, dictates that when a withdrawal is conducted, the bulk of the unit leaves under the command of the XO (in this case probably Keogh), while a smaller part of the unit remains behind to cover the withdrawal under the command of the CO.
Artifacts found on battle ridge extension shows that C, I, and L, or elements of those companies, were there. With those 3 on BRE, E and F could have been covered as they moved into the flats to attempt a crossing. Heavy pressure at ford D forces a pullback to cemetery ridge, where a short delay could have been held to organize the withdrawal. Custer would have ordered the bulk of his unit to move out. Why C, I, and L first?
Because they were on BRE, furthest from the ford. E and F were the closest so they become the delaying unit. L leaves first, followed by C. I remained on BRE a little longer, probably providing cover to L and C, as fire was also coming from the east (Wolftooth and friends). L gets into a meeting engagement below CH and winds up moving back uphill. C tries to cover L's right flank. When I company pulls out, it gets caught in transit, probably by the Indians coming through the gap in BR that Fred mentions in his book. That accounts for why there are fewer cartridge finds in the Keogh sector. All of this happened at the same time Indians were coming from deep ravine, ford D, and the north and east, pressuring all 5 companies.
A "by the book" withdrawal fits the archeological evidence and the Indian accounts. Also, remember Godfrey conducted a covering action with 1 company when Reno retreated from Weir point back to the defensive position. In Custer's case, Indian pressure prevented the withdrawal from being completely implemented.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 9, 2022 10:07:47 GMT -6
Colt, concise and to the point. Exactly what I was looking for with my questions several pages ago. Like GAC or not, he was no fool, he would not have left the bulk of his combat power between one or more miles behind. Theo nor anyone else has mentioned Wolftooth's band or the two returning hunting parties that were dogging the Command throughout his northern movement. I'm not sure the above posters other than Ian were aware.
Thank you, my friend.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 9, 2022 10:28:26 GMT -6
Colt, concise and to the point. Exactly what I was looking for with my questions several pages ago. Like GAC or not, he was no fool, he would not have left the bulk of his combat power between one or more miles behind. Theo nor anyone else has mentioned Wolftooth's band or the two returning hunting parties that were dogging the Command throughout his northern movement. I'm not sure the above posters other than Ian were aware. Thank you, my friend. Regards, Tom I do have knowledge of Wolf Tooth and hunting parties, but they would be like mosquitoes biting from far away. They kept them away with no problem
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 9, 2022 12:41:32 GMT -6
Excellent, but the swatting of mosquitoes at two probable mounted skirmish locations certainly(slowing movement) enabled the hornets nest to gather in a timely fashion to slay the quarry. Colt's mention of the gap was very important in the folding and demise of Company I.
Regards, Tom
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