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Post by Nape Sintekiya Mani on Jul 9, 2022 14:00:16 GMT -6
Excellent, but the swatting of mosquitoes at two probable mounted skirmish locations certainly(slowing movement) enabled the hornets nest to gather in a timely fashion to slay the quarry. Colt's mention of the gap was very important in the folding and demise of Company I. Regards, Tom Yes, totally agree with you. In the end, even the slightest punctures were important and added up. A whole series of small details that together made the battle win by the indians warriors.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 10, 2022 12:56:05 GMT -6
Excellent, but the swatting of mosquitoes at two probable mounted skirmish locations certainly(slowing movement) enabled the hornets nest to gather in a timely fashion to slay the quarry. Colt's mention of the gap was very important in the folding and demise of Company I. Regards, Tom We haven't mentioned Fred's "Gap" in Battle Ridge for ages, it was very important and maybe the cause of Keogh's company being found in two groups, if Crazy Horse rode through that gap with his mounted band, then this would have been the end of company "I" and the other survivors. Ian
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 10, 2022 18:29:16 GMT -6
The gap explains many things, such as I company being cut off from L and C, E and F unable to go anywhere but LSH and toward deep ravine, and L and C unable to move back to LSH as a unit. This especially explains why I company was caught in transit and surprised, thus unable to mount a serious defense. It all happened too quickly.
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Post by dave on Jul 11, 2022 10:30:46 GMT -6
Ian and Colt, I agree with y'alls comments. Nice to hear from both of you again. Regards Dave
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 11, 2022 14:07:34 GMT -6
Hi Dave, just like old times.
Ian
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Post by dave on Jul 11, 2022 20:31:05 GMT -6
Fellas I have a few other problems and have not been posting much. I have had all I need from the Coloradan and feel compulsion to post on the Centennial board. I still check in on my friends and will be more active soon Regards Dave
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Post by herosrest on Jul 12, 2022 11:07:58 GMT -6
Excellent, but the swatting of mosquitoes at two probable mounted skirmish locations certainly(slowing movement) enabled the hornets nest to gather in a timely fashion to slay the quarry. Colt's mention of the gap was very important in the folding and demise of Company I. Regards, Tom From Edward McClernand's narrative of the Little Big Horn campaign, published in Gordon Harper's 'The Fights on the Little Horn Companion' book. 'I am of the opinion that an appreciable interval of time must have elapsed between the order for Calhoun to fight on foot, and the similar order given Keogh, for if they had been dismounted by the same command, or order, then the dead led horses of the two troops would have been found closer together.' The thing here is, that M cClernand was there, arriving with Terry and Montana Column, and saw what he saw which was what everyone else saw. The information doesn't clear anything up because there is muddied water over successional actions - whether the companies or platoons were operating together or seperately at same or different times. There is no analytical method which can prove or divine this. What M cClernand deduced, though, is better than anyone has done since. There are a number of reasons why Keogh's company 'markers' are clustered to two groups. I'm not in the mood to dredge over this ground but simply point out this is another of the problems which cannot be solved. It's impossible to solve and falls to best guess. Was Keogh leading a battalion, company or platoon when overwhelmed. It is an extremely odd place for a military unit to fight in being flanked by higher ground north and south and with deep gullies all around. Besides the old dip, which fred makes so much of, there were also a series of small hills along the road route from Greasy Grass Hill to Calhoun, which were decapitated during grading. A further point, is Edward Godfrey's location on Battle Ridge for Smith's Company E, at what I think of as Smith's Hill, where evidence of fighting has been found. Anyway, I hope you are all well and booming. I had just wanted to inject M cClernand's information but got carried away (put me down, now!) because he visited the Battleground and valley before anyone else of Custer or Terry's command, having recon'd the area in late April/early May 1876. An article by him is in the Cavalry-Armor Journal 1927 link. Good read. It's at page 4 onwards of 334. Lots of now obscure stuff on...... oh yaeh, US cavalry and armor. Unfortunately, in this copy the maps are mainly blacked out and they are very interesting but I have lost the link to another copy elsewhere and didn't DL them. It is helpful to keep McClernand in mind. The matter complicates from get go because of differing opinions about the Keogh battalion being ICB companies as during the march from FAL and as all regimental records show, or including Company L and Company C, or excluding Company C. It's a game isn't it and all hung off the idea Custer was a loose cannon making it up as he went along. During two score of years and a number of noted discussions including two with Custer himself, you can take it as gospel that keogh operated a battalion consisting of companies I,B, and C with Company B detached to rearguard the regiment's advance. Hopefully, you don't need to waste any more effort on wrong thinking this matter - it is a huge spoiler used to mess with minds. I'm off now for a chat with some little people about big horns (of ale).
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 12, 2022 12:05:37 GMT -6
The gap explains many things, such as I company being cut off from L and C, E and F unable to go anywhere but LSH and toward deep ravine, and L and C unable to move back to LSH as a unit. This especially explains why I company was caught in transit and surprised, thus unable to mount a serious defense. It all happened too quickly. Hi Colt I agree. I have ridden horseback on the east side battlefield. You can approach from there with lots of cover. In that drainage, you would not be seen until right on those in I company. I believe they were in a retrograde, and it stopped near Deep Coulee. I think Keogh was leading and was shot. The retrograde ended, and they were attempting to fall back when they were fixed and destroyed. Regards Steve
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 12, 2022 12:32:46 GMT -6
HR, as you stipulate, McClernand was there months before the fight and shortly after, but he was not there, during the fight. His opinion is much like any officer that came upon the debacle, nothing more than educated speculation. The fact that Keogh's command was split might indicate that they were hit broadside by a force, while in retrograde along the ridge. By, say CH and friends.
Hay, it's pretty hot here, that ale sounds good, enjoy.
Regards, T
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 12, 2022 12:53:20 GMT -6
Tom it is hot here too, reaching over a hundred by Sunday, even hotter on Monday, HR will know of this.
Yes, battle ridge would look far different then the level crest complete with road, looks now. there are old maps showing a number of hillocks all in a line.
Ian
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Post by herosrest on Jul 13, 2022 10:32:02 GMT -6
HR, as you stipulate, McClernand was there months before the fight and shortly after, but he was not there, during the fight. His opinion is much like any officer that came upon the debacle, nothing more than educated speculation. The fact that Keogh's command was split might indicate that they were hit broadside by a force, while in retrograde along the ridge. By, say CH and friends. Hay, it's pretty hot here, that ale sounds good, enjoy. Regards, T It's unfortunate that CH never drew us a map............ but my studies of his battlegroup's participants indicates they arrived with the flow of Indians attacking downriver from Weir"s Peak, across Medicine Tail and onto and over DC. This would be along the route taken by warriors shown in Patterson-Hughes map, dated 30 June, 1876. link Those whom DeRudio testified about to the inquiry besides his spotting Benteen's command turn from the river. CH crossed the river below Weir's Peak to get at the five companies.
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Post by herosrest on Jul 13, 2022 10:35:31 GMT -6
Tom it is hot here too, reaching over a hundred by Sunday, even hotter on Monday, HR will know of this. Yes, battle ridge would look far different then the level crest complete with road, looks now. there are old maps showing a number of hillocks all in a line. Ian Yup, UB5 hottest place. No. 303 (Kościuszko) Polish Fighter Squadron was one of 16 Polish squadrons in the RAF during the Second World War. It is believed to have been the highest 'scoring' of the RAF's 66 squadrons involved in the Battle of Britain. The squadron was formed in July 1940 and deployed to RAF Northolt.
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Post by shan on Jul 14, 2022 8:36:41 GMT -6
Speaking as someone whose drifted in and out of these boards for more years than I care to remember, its interesting to see these various theories come around again and again. And heres the thing, each time I read them, I tend to fall for them for awhile, thinking well, maybe there's a pssibility that this particlar theory is right this time, after all, nothing else seems to work.
But then I think back to a time when I first got interested in the subject. Way back then, there was by and large only the one theory. Custer made his way down towards the river to the place we now call ford B. There, he was replused, and then driven back up the hill in a running fight which eventually ended up with that famous last stand up on Last Stand hill. The famous buffolo hunt as some of the Indians would have it.
Since then, we've had to get our heads around the various ford D's theory. Now as far as I was concerned, when I first heard it, it seemed completely crazy to think that he ~ Custer ~ would have had the time to make such a jaunt, after all, this is a battle isn't it? And battles happen very fast don't they? I mean look what happened to Reno? And so we nodded and listened to some very persusive people who argued the case, in spite of the fact that the only evidence they seemed to have was the word of one man, the famous John Stands in Timber. Now I was never comfortable with it myself, but then it had one thing going for it as far as I was concerned. Given that it seemed highly unlikely that Custer himself was hit and killed down at ford B, it meant that I could move him up to ford, D and have him shot there, and then have him subsequently moved to LSH, and bingo. Everthing seemed to fall into place. or at least, it did for a while.
And now we have the North to South flow theory raising its ugly head. Well like I say, it seems to make some sense if your prepared to tinker with it, but then that involves one having to move a lot of chess pieces around the board to accomodate it. Ockums razor comes to mind here ~ excuse the spelling but I'm in a rush.In which case, what, I ask myself, was wrong with the original theory? After all, it seemd to chime with most of the evidence we had from the Indian side, and so, if it worked back then, why not now?
No, no, I can hear you thinking, sorry, but we've come a long way since then.
Shan
MT
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Post by noggy on Jul 15, 2022 4:20:59 GMT -6
And now we have the North to South flow theory raising its ugly head. Well like I say, it seems to make some sense if your prepared to tinker with it, but then that involves one having to move a lot of chess pieces around the board to accomodate it. Ockums razor comes to mind here ~ excuse the spelling but I'm in a rush.In which case, what, I ask myself, was wrong with the original theory? After all, it seemd to chime with most of the evidence we had from the Indian side, and so, if it worked back then, why not now? (I wrote a long post, then hit backspace...This will be a watered down text since I have to watch a friendly match between Man United and some Australian side) An interesting thing to me, if I put on my Historian Cap from my University days, is how we all pretty much have access to the same material. Testimonies, archaeological etc findings are not kept secret from researches/enthusiasts. Some books are harder to come by, though. Yet we see how the same sources can be viewed very differently; Fox's book on archaeology is built around a conventional South-North flow, yet can be used by proponents (right word?) of a N/S flow. Native testimonies and the crude maps they drew (Red Hawk, Standing Bear, Flying Hawk are the ones I have fresh in memory) can be and has been used to "prove" both theories. Memory may fail me here, but I think I in my lurking days have even seen Runs the Enemy's account be used in a N/S setting...so yeah. Personally I have no personal investment in this battle. I find it interesting, that's all. Also, I acknowledge that neither I or any other will know everything that happened on BR/LSH down to the shoe size of Crazy Owl Chaser's second cousin or whatever. That's why I think there are (smaller but still of importance) things that happened maybe a little "between" the two "absolute" theories. I'd also just like to add this: I have never read a text advocating the N/S theory. Does one even exist? On the other hand, I have seen the S/N in dozens upon dozens of books and articles, from amatueres to professional historians (and Philbrick...) plus archaeologists. I would recommend that you guys produce something yourselves, maybe not a book, but an article? I'd read it, and so would hundreds if not thousands of others. It could spark a discussion, which I at least believe is what we should try to have going. Like I've said before, I have no emotional connection to the battle and like to read any well-argumented text on it. I know you guys who advocate the N/S are very serious about it and I respect (and like, actually ) all of you. Several of you are among the reasons I signed up on this board. You are well-read and smart people, so since you believe in this theory I would really hope you choose to make more out of it than a bunch of posts scattered over a couple (2?) boards. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 15, 2022 12:45:25 GMT -6
The main flow of the battle was indeed south to north. The north to south part is describing the fighting withdrawal attempt that military tactics dictate would have been the proper thing for Custer to do. He was not an idiot, so he would have tried to withdraw back south when his situation near ford D became obviously untenable. After Custer's initial mistake of going up the bluffs, everything else he did was tactically sound.
Artifacts found east of ford D along battle ridge extension indicate army firing positions, as well as artifacts in the cemetery ridge area. For this to be, there must have been more than 2 companies present. Tactically, to hold out on CR requires also holding BRE. Since no large concentrations of bodies were found on BRE, it stands to reason that the units there pulled out to the south. The final positions of C, I, and L confirm this. Plus, I company being caught in transit also indicates there was an active withdrawal in progress when they were stopped.
Also, the artifacts in the Calhoun Hill area indicate a skirmish line downslope from the top of the hill, with another line further up the hill. No one sets a skirmish line down low on a hill unless they suddenly encounter hostiles there. The second skirmish line shows L company moving back to the top of the hill. This indicates L was going south when they hit hostiles in the coulee.
I don't know of a book or article espousing the north to south theory per se, but military training and experience, plus a preponderance of the evidence on the ground, along with JSIT's testimony, makes the north to south withdrawal theory a likely event to have occurred. We can't know for sure, but all of us who have military experience believe this theory to be true. Like so much of this battle, no one will ever know for sure.
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