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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 13, 2022 1:44:10 GMT -6
Hi Rob.
The action around the northern fords has been neglected by many, but there are a few on these boards who have dug deeper.
Tom and Steve have got down in the weeds and have done a lot of work on this.
A bunch of us have took this further and studied the idea that Custer took his whole force of five companies past LSH and was forced back by Cheyenne counter attacks.
Tom and Steve also spoke with Indians from around that area and there was a hunting party which caught Custer from behind, add to the large force of Cheyenne fighters sat waiting in the benches.
There is plenty been done on this portion of the battlefield and markers being move because of later ground work.
Just go to the members thread and seek out "Mac", just check out his last post and see the work he has done, he has been one of the group I and Tom, Steve + others too are in.
Ian
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 13, 2022 4:19:25 GMT -6
Rob,
I am not going to attempt to convince you one way or another. We all have our opinions, hopefully we base it on something more than gut feeling or that's the way it has always been. You will note that I stated that what they were doing or why they were there was not my call. But, from my shagging of this, I am certain the bodies were there and that they were Seventh Cavalry troopers.
I rarely mention one of the original stones placed over there was stolen and used in a Cheyenne foundation. Never have I seen it, only heard the story. Steve and I have had the pleasure of meeting Dull Knifes g.g.granddaughter, Tall Bull and other descendents. We also have reason to believe John Stands in Timbers location of Ford D.
Your first visit to the battlefield was in the 60's, you were a you lad, mine was in June, 1990, I was 40, it was brief. I know I didn't study hard during my first visit, just enjoyed. That visit did, however rekindle my interest. Neither of us visited the Park prior to the 1950's reconfiguration of the Park and new road. We never saw Kellogg's original marker along the old road. The Park has pictures of it. Steve and I have traveled that road through private property. Steve has visited JSIT's Ford D location. It has caused us to expand our view of this action.
I don't expect to drag others along with my thinking. I am comfortable with my current view. As others must be with theirs. Montrose has vocally taken on my point of view, and I respect his point of view.
I could really make you crazy with my thoughts on John Grass(Charging Bear).
I too enjoy the dialogue/interaction.
Regards, Tom
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Post by montrose on Jul 11, 2023 23:21:00 GMT -6
Bill, If you directly approach an enemy, it is natural to fall back directly to the rear. The problem is he Custer detachment was not approaching the enemy. They moved past the village. This means when they turned around, they were not moving away from the enemy, they were moving towards them. In the valley fight, the Reno detachment could not follow their backtrail, as 800 Indians cut around their open flank and cut them off from Ford A. They were forced to attack a superior force while also conducting a reconnaissance for a way to cross the river. The North to South theory states that all 5 companies went to Ford D, and then tried to follow their own backtrail down Battle Ridge towards Weir point. Even though there were a few Indians east of Battle Ridge, the vast majority were west, coming from Fords B, C, and D. It would be natural for the NS units to move east as they try to get back towards the south. It is insanity that they would move even closer to Ford B, like the C Company move from Calhoun Hill to Finley/Finkle Ridge. The large amount of bodies west of Battle Ridge casts doubt on the NS theory. The NS theory has to explain how the companies became so badly scattered. L Company made it to Calhoun Hill, and fought in skirmish lines for an extended period. So why was the Regimental HQ (really an HHD) on the north end of Battle Ridge, far to the rear? Was LTC Custer some Colonel Blimp, waiting in a dugout far to the rear? That is not his nature. Why did E company head towards the river, rather than south? Because Indian forces held the ground between them and companies C, I, L who had never gone north. The southern companies were being overrun. The Indian elements to the east were enough to deter E Company from moving that way, but if all 5 companies were in the north, they would have been swept aside. The fact that the 5 companies were destroyed, all out of supporting range of one another, can not be explained by the NS theory. It is a null hypothesis fail. Respectfully, William I have mostly stayed out of the North to South theory. It has too many holes, not only is it not probable, it is not possible. If all 5 companies went to Ford D, then there could be no fighting on the south end of Battle Ridge, meaning Calhoun Hill and Finley-Finkle area. If all were in the north, they would have fought as a common hole, and stayed in mutual support. The NS theory also states as a core principal that LTC Custer stayed far in the rear, and took no part in the attack. Does anyone seriously believe that? I find the NS theory relies on emotion, not rational thought. I am open to a fact based discussion. Steve, you have the patience of a saint. As an Irish Catholic from South Boston, I do not. Respectfully, William
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Post by herosrest on Jul 17, 2023 7:50:24 GMT -6
As far as I can discern across a spell of time, the root and origin of developing interest in terrain west of the monument area fighting, lays with Cliff Nelson as ranger at the monument. Clifford L. Nelson, “The Custer Battalion at the Little Bighorn,” history honors thesis, Concordia College, 1969 Clifford L. Nelson (comp.), “Register of the Research Correspondence Collection, Custer Battlefield National Monument” (artifacts; skeletal remains), on file at Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument, Crow Agency, Montana SourceOther - Some of the recent stuff coming onto Youtube Datameister series HistoryBiographyCBHMA Symmposium Index 1987 - 2017 There is a usful index and comment of relic data here by Scott.
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