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Post by herosrest on Oct 13, 2023 13:26:20 GMT -6
I'll hunt it up, in rereading the topic, which is coffee breaks to round it out. Beyond that, I wonder if you have come across this item before, it dates from the battlefield and the Officer in charge of the infantry battalion - who rode over the ground on 27th June 1876. Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library > Sioux campaign journal, 1876.I've seen Bob Nightengale's stuff and coincided with dissecting wtf actually went on with Maguire's maps. He didn't draw the map, you know. His initial sketches only showed one route of march, through Calhoun, Keogh, Custer, and 'H'. Benteen and Freeman offered alternate opinion. Busy for a while..... What was you ravine filled in with?
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 13, 2023 13:38:05 GMT -6
Hey herosrest!
Thanks for the link. But I couldn't make out very much. My eyes are bad! They eye doctor says I have a Cadillac (oh wait, I mean cataracts!). Could you possibly (make it easy for me) summarize the high points of the link for me?
My ravine (thanks for that!) was filled in with what I beleive you stated in another post. Dirt from some road construction or "improvements" at the Little Bighorn about 1932 to 1935.
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 13, 2023 14:42:42 GMT -6
lakota - this is what I can make out... "7 is a ravine which toward the upper end is very steep and forms a pocket in which 28 bodies were found" And... “C at the upper end is the point where Custer crossed the coulle” “The dotted lines along the bluffs to the ford his trail” “At 6 the first bodies were found” “At one + 4 there were indications they had dismounted and made a stand and again at 2” At 5 the highest point on the ridge Custer was killed with what remains…him and his 5 Co.” Someone over-wrote "Custer" vs "Reno" stuff - and maybe added some punctuation - if I recall they got it wrong.
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 13, 2023 15:25:58 GMT -6
Hey my friend johnson1941! I think I remember seeing the below statement somewhere on the thread before (I even think it was you that stated it in a previous post!). Thanks for summarizing the papers for me! So, "7 is a ravine which toward the upper end is very steep and forms a pocket in which 28 bodies were found". Well the compass direction of North on this map is not the same as on your other maps (so evidently the compass directions on these old maps can be off). Also, it is stated ".....is very steep and forms a pocket". Well that definetly does not describe deep ravine. But it can very well describe the Forgotten Ravine with its bowl or basin feature! I also notice that the number "7" appears to be between what must be where bodies were found between cemetery ridge ravine and the deep ravine to the right of the cemetery ridge ravine (below #5, last stand hill shows cemetery ridge ravine-also "C" must describe a coulee at the top of the cemetery ridge ravine by LSH-picture included-or several other possible coulees that seem to appear in that area). I included a picture to show "very steep and forms a pocket". Also, where the "steep ravine" should be on that old sketch at #7 (of course that map is just an approximation, but based on the location of #7- that is as close as I can get!). Also a picture of where several coulees can appear at LSH. Thanks for the assist!
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 13, 2023 16:06:42 GMT -6
Yes, it gets to be all repetitious and circuitous!
Where is that core sample of the Forgotten Ravine! Come on NPS, get with it!
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Post by herosrest on Oct 13, 2023 16:42:22 GMT -6
linkThere's a presentation of the map on Friends. I offer a caution,which is why I went with the Yale original. A well read book give's Freeman's No. 1 location as being at far left just below the Cardinal indicator. Unfortunately, that 'interpretation' swings low beneath round stuff. '1' is clearly visible on the original. While we are at it, and since you guys luv overload here's a toy for yaz........ a work in progress and quite special really. OMG Files It is unrelated to moi - enjoy. Now, core your ravine filling and it will prove what? That is why I enquired for what you think it might have been filled with. The same earth which surrounds it. You might, just possibly pick up sedimentary layers by laying in a lateral trench....... damn......... I said lateral........ hmmmm. but the terrain is washed and scoured continually and I doubt that a section view would reveal anything unless alien soil was shipped in for the job. I know that RCoI etc. etc. gives a ravine side collapsed over decaying dead but Company B had no tools. None, nada, zilch, other than a few pots and pans and a spoon, or two. That reminds me of ND and Therisnospoon..... Capt. and later B.G. Freeman, was a considerably experienced guy, and that sketch really is an interesting bit of history since he strolled about the field noting what he saw and sketched for his own sake, and recollection. It took a hundred years to get his journal published, because it is utterly brilliant but not a lot of people know this and collecting this battle's books turns into a rash. Regards. Somewhere, amongst images which I stumbled into ages ago, is the old blacktop somewhere around the loop at Calhoun with a Ford Model T or some such whizzing along it. It was a very simple road laid out over the existing trail which had been there for as long as people were travelling the right bank of the river. I doubt that much if any grading was done and think further that your 1935 might be a few years early for tarmac. Those old bangers ran perfectly well along dirt roads shaking occupants to pieces. I think it was Marquis who managed to crash his in just such circumstanes. There are a few old images of cars on the ridge and the way they turn up, is when looking for something or anything else in the historical image libraries like M cCraken Research Library.
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 13, 2023 16:57:20 GMT -6
My friend herosrest-
Since rosebud kept saying "core sample", "core sample", "core sample" I thought that was what was needed! But you are correct. A core sample probably won't prove a darn thing, unless the sample brings up bone or something else.
Maybe a geologist could more easily discern where the original dirt "ends" and the "new" dirt used to fill the ravine begins?
Hell, I don't know! Or like one of your previous posts you put up a picture of a huge tractor with a dirt digging claw! But I think that would be a little "too much"!
Onward!
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Post by herosrest on Oct 13, 2023 17:23:27 GMT -6
Bigger is better. Even proving the terrain has been filled still leaves the problem of finding any scraps of remains or evidence which might remain, and there will be little. For me, I don't have a vision of thirty or so men of company B on the edge of a deep ravine and collapsing hundreds or even tens of tons of soil into the bottom. I also feel that there were enough ongoing efforts to clear the terrain of remains, that it was done eventually to the point of the point, of clearing the field. This is the kind of stuff considered when the Archo's start thinking this stuff through. Donahue is a professor in Austin, has worked the park for 30 years and I'm sure they just smile at him when he starts his DR theory. Company E used to be M cDougall's company so.......... he knew them all. www.facebook.com/NPSLIBI/videos/the-myth-that-no-soldiers-were-buried-in-deep-ravine/703878817129231/
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 13, 2023 17:44:18 GMT -6
Yes my friend herosrest-
I agree with you. I don't care about remains being found (as I stated to you in a previous post). My concern is the Forgotten Ravines significance during the battle. Was it used by the Native Americans? Did Custer use it to defend from? Should the NPS at least mark where it was and place an "interpretive sign" at its location to describe its significance?
As I have stated before, if it was easy to find it would have been discovered and found long ago! I believe it was filled in to make for a more "easy" tourist access to the deep ravine (also explained in a previous post).
And yes, I met M. Donahue at the park when I was there in July! Totally "dismissed" what I had to say when I approached him with my Maguire map in hand and asked him if that was cemetery ridge ravine at the "H". He immediatley stated "no", "you are reading the map wrong" and recommended I look at his published collection of maps of the battlefield that he wrote and that I probably couldn't afford but I could look at it at the "trading post" below the park..
In my opinion a typical "know it all" professor. If your cup is full, you can't add any more to it! Another Zen type saying!
My friend, don't get me started!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 13, 2023 19:14:52 GMT -6
Lakotadan, Never met Donahue. Seems like a great chap. But he is IN MY OPINION, another 'expert' who likes to tell us what people meant when they said something. Or worse - that they must have been forgetful or lying! www.friendslittlebighorn.com/sharpshooterridgefieldtrip.htmI.E. "Other accounts (Which accounts? Any 1st hand?) have the trail going through the saddle of Weir Point (since cut out by the road) and down the slope of the bluffs. In an unpublished letter, French said Custer’s trail went over the saddle of the high ground, meaning the swale between the heights of Weir Point." SAYS WHO??? "“So,” Donahue said, “if you take Curley’s (and Martin's because "Martin was forgetful or lying") account out of the equation, all these other accounts begin to make sense.” ALL WHICH OTHER ACCOUNTS? I wish someone would post a few. (Ie Curtis) And what about the other Crow scouts who said the same thing re: going down the South coulee? We can take their accounts out of the equation too I guess. Plus the Hostiles like Standing bear and He Dog. He says re: Thompson "He saw Custer go down over the hill, not down Cedar Coulee." NO HE DIDNT. THOMPSON NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. He said "the last of the companies had disappeared "over the Crest of the hill"". PERIOD. Which HILL? (Well - I KNOW which one). And they should too...they talk about the Rees, and Thompson, and 1st seeing the village, and all the important stuff that went on there (south end SSH / G = Martin's Ridge) yet still suddenly Custer was transported 1/2 mile away to Weir Point. (BTW - Kanipe found thompson's horse at the top of Cedar coulee). And thanks to HR, we KNOW metal detectors found things in Cedar Coulee - its in the Tech Report that he linked to. Despite what they say in that article. Lakotadan - THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE UP AGAINST!!!
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 13, 2023 19:38:34 GMT -6
Wow my friend!
Looks like I "got you started"! Yes, in any field (same with some other forums I belong to) there are those that think they know by stating opinions (like M. Donahue-my opinion!) and then there are those that investigate deeper through intensive scholarly research to find out "the truth" (like you-my opinion!).
Onward!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 13, 2023 20:02:33 GMT -6
HR & Lakotadan, Donahue describes Kanipe & camp surveying from the monument to the ravine in 100’ intervals (stations) in 1908. We talked about this way back when and now it explains why Kanipes 2100’ to the men is so accurate…he measured it with camp! thanks! lbha.proboards.com/thread/5457/deep-ravine-company-query?page=8Camp’s “28 men found here”…
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 14, 2023 5:49:31 GMT -6
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 14, 2023 6:41:10 GMT -6
Hello johnston1941!
So, in response to your latest 2 posts.
I have no problem with 28 bodies being buried in deep ravine. I am not saying that those bodies are buried in the forgotten ravine. What I am saying, and have said in previous posts, is that there may have been more than one battle scenario occurring along the length of that ravine (which seems at one time to have connected the cemetery ridge ravine to the deep ravine - and that "bowl feature" is on a high point so one side of the ravine would empty into the cemetery ridge ravine and the other side into deep ravine).
I have previously mentioned in a post where Chief Lame White Man killed 18 to 24 soldiers. That appears to be at the location where cemetery ridge meets the forgotten ravine.
The 28 bodies (supposedly still there in deep ravine) is about where the forgotten ravine meets the deep ravine.
Hurrah!
Now onto your other post. Yes you are correct. It was evidently "experted" previously. But on the same link that you provide (post of Aug 16th at 5:37am), I put in my "2 cents worth" about how it was "experted" and included my opinions on the subject.
The adventure continues!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 14, 2023 6:45:27 GMT -6
Ah thanks 'Dan - that does clear up a lot of the issue for me. So Deep Gully / Deep Ravine is correct. 'Cemetary ravine' is correct - someone just needs to connect them. Got it!
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