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Post by noggy on Aug 8, 2023 14:10:58 GMT -6
I hope that the National Park Service will consider my letters and research about the “Forgotten Ravine” and its significance and importance in the battle at the Little Bighorn. I'm looking forward to any progress here. Noggy
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 8, 2023 15:00:03 GMT -6
Yes Noggy! Me too!
I think it is too soon to hear anything back from the National Park Service yet.
But I was able to find a way to message a Dr. of Archeology that took part in the original “dig” of the battlefield in 1984.
So, hopefully, between the Dr. of Archeology and the National Park Service I should (?) hear something back (hopefully sooner than later!).
When I do (if I do!), I will let the forum members know. I am still excited about this stuff!
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 16, 2023 6:37:28 GMT -6
Hello all!
So, a couple of days ago I received a reply from a Dr. of Archaeology that was involved in the “dig” on the battlefield in 1984 and 1985. Wow!
I include his response below (as I mentioned on this thread I would let the forum members know of any response)-
“I saw your posts on the forum. I am afraid I disagree with you. The ravine you picture, the historic images, does not show a ravine being filled in. Rather the image shows a headward cut – the start of a new ravine. You should check with a soil scientist or geomorphologist to see if they concur. The cut you picture was filled in during the 1950s as you surmise, perhaps even a bit earlier. During our metal detecting there and at the head of Deep Ravine in 1984 and 1985 we found physical evidence the army and the park service had used the areas as dumps for their trash. In part this aided in stopping the headward cutting erosion in those areas, so it was not a bad idea at the time. It is entirely possible that one or more of the bodies were found near this area and that the caving in of the bank to cover those remains may have initiated the headward cutting episode.”
So, I am not certain what he is saying. He states the “The ravine you picture, the historic images, does not show a ravine being filled in”. Well, that is correct. I included that historic picture to show how the ravine and “basin” feature looked in the 1930’s before it was filled in. It has obviously been filled in at some point!
Then he states “a headward cut-the start of a new ravine”. Well, that ravine isn’t “new” and must have been a significant feature on the battlefield in 1876, I mean it probably takes a couple of hundred years for something like that to form?
Then “filled in during the 1950s as you surmise, perhaps even a bit earlier”. So that could mean that the “Forgotten Ravine” could have been filled in before the site was designated a National Park in 1946?
He did “metal detecting there and at the head of Deep Ravine”. So, it seems they did metal detecting there (but where on the forgotten ravine?). I mean no one could see it or even knew it was there, so they must have done metal detecting over the entire battlefield.
Then it is stated “It is entirely possible that one or more of the bodies were found near this area and that the caving of the bank to cover those remains……...”.
So, now is he saying that this is an area where remains still could be found? I am certain that if any archeological team knew of this area at the time they were on the battlefield, then this area would have been more thoroughly studied.
I did reply back to him and advised him of some of my disagreements (respectfully!).
Anyway, just my thoughts and opinions on his response! Still have not heard back from the National Park Service (I wonder if I ever will!).
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Post by herosrest on Aug 17, 2023 13:55:50 GMT -6
Hello all! So, a couple of days ago I received a reply from a Dr. of Archaeology that was involved in the “dig” on the battlefield in 1984 and 1985. Wow! I include his response below (as I mentioned on this thread I would let the forum members know of any response)- “I saw your posts on the forum. I am afraid I disagree with you. The ravine you picture........ Your specific interest has been considered previously, is what is being said and an opinion offered. Besides this, I point out again that during the first few years after, there was concern from families and others for the exposed remains littering the field, and numerous efforts were made to tidy graves and relocate bodies to a mass grave. Problems with exposed remains continued and forther efforts took place to keep things tidy and one can imagine this was so in1890 when markers were placed. As far as the ravine burials go, maybe bodies remain under a collapsed ravine flank but, the rains and winds will very quickly have washed that soil out and flushed it down the ridge. That would expose the remains for reburials. I am not saying that you do not have a case but the work involved in digging out terrain and sifting through the dirt is a substantial job and one costing a loy of time and bucks.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 17, 2023 13:57:03 GMT -6
As a follow up with some info - apparently a "Station" is a route survey term, that indicates 100'; measuremnts taken from a starting point of 0+00'. In the case of Camp's oilskin battlefield & marker maps, he was using the monument as 00. "STA is short for "Station". Each Station is 100 feet, which is a unit of measurement throwback to the old 100 foot chains surveyors used to mark distances with." Which means way back on pg 8 in this thread that Camp's scale is in 100' increments, so between Sta 21 and 22 would indeed be 2150'. Cheers! Well done.
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 18, 2023 15:03:09 GMT -6
Hello all! (oh yeah, and my friend herosrest- I am not saying the "Forgotten Ravine" should be "dug out". I am only saying that it should be identified, possibly marked, and considered in its significance during the battle. If the NPS wants to dig, I will be there to help them!). So, onward! - So, I am probably “overthinking this” (yes, I do that sometimes!). On another thread johnson1941 (thank you for that!) posted a link which I include below- genealogytrails.com/mon/bighorn/littlebighornbattle.htmlNow, on the 5th picture of that link is found a picture of the battlefield. I have seen that picture many times before on the internet, but this is the first time I found a description of where it was taken (please refer to the picture in the link and the statements). Evidently that picture was taken in a very specific part of the battlefield without a “wide angle” view. Now eliminating some anomalies in the old photograph (some “bubbles” and “stray marks” by a soldier marker), that photograph may show a view of the “Forgotten Ravine”. At first, I thought that the possible ravine area pictured could be a tree line by the river. But on closer examination I saw “soldier markers” that appeared to be very close to the “geologic formation” that I term the “Forgotten Ravine”. Also, since the photograph was taken at an elevated view the more westerly sides of the ravine (those going downhill) would appear higher and more significant (which they do). Then I thought that this could be a picture of the deep ravine that was taken. However, to take a picture of the deep ravine with this orientation would require the photographer to be at least 1300 feet below the monument and facing (more or less) in a southerly direction (Google map measurements!). So maybe the earliest photograph of the “Forgotten Ravine” and its “basin” below the monument where fierce fighting occurred (quote taken from a National Park Service article that can be found at this website)- www.nps.gov/libi/learn/historyculture/deep-ravine-trail.htmSo, am I wrong (probably!). Or maybe not! Just some more interesting stuff.
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 18, 2023 19:19:51 GMT -6
I've included a couple few shots - a couple quite old, and one new - seems to be about the same view, with Deep Ravine off in the upper middle left. A LOT of markers are visible in the old pics, the Ravine trail in the new _ _ Would the "forgotten ravine" be just east of the clump of markers by the ravine? (moving towards the bottom of the images - somewhere above the cross?). Attachments:
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 19, 2023 7:19:56 GMT -6
Thanks, johnson1941 for the great pictures! That first picture is really old (probably around the early 1900’s!). I think your third picture shown was taken at the Keogh site (I think I read that somewhere!). So, what do I know (not much – ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!). Well, I know the “Forgotten Ravine” existed and must have been a significant feature on the battlefield in 1876 as shown by the aerial photograph (on one or more posts on this thread- taken in the 1930’s). I think I read somewhere that it was taken in 1932. I know that the ravine was filled in as shown by Google earth pictures also on this thread. It was filled in probably in the late 1940’s or early 1950’s. I also know that no one “saw” the remains of this geologic feature or did any serious archaeological research of this particular area. Now, on your first photograph I think your conclusion is just about correct on the location of the ravine (hey, where did all the markers go!). I think the ravine would be between the first and second ridge seen in your picture. Just below the clump of markers and going in a northward direction towards cemetery ridge. It appears that you can just see a “piece” of the ravine below the markers and going northward? Anyway, I was “floundering” around on the internet again and found a great picture. It is the only picture I have found that gives a great current view of the topography of the battlefield by LSH. I have included two pictures below. The first is an “unmarked” picture of the area. The second picture is a “marked” picture indicating where I think the “Forgotten Ravine” is (also indicating the “bowl” or “basin” feature). Notice how one side of the ravine would drain into the Cemetery Ridge Ravine (or coulee) and the other side would drain into the Deep Ravine. I found the area by comparing the placement of the soldier markers and using information and Google earth photos I included previously on this thread. The adventure continues! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Aug 19, 2023 10:41:30 GMT -6
See these - definitely the seems the same view/area (different cross though). Scouts may be earlier, though the damage to markers looks quite evident.
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 19, 2023 11:13:01 GMT -6
Thanks, johnson1941! Yes, you are correct. I see it now. The picture with the scouts does show a similar view and I can just make out the row of soldier markers down in about the middle of the picture way down the hill. I have included your picture with a blue line of where the Forgotten Ravine may appear. Not really sure, but my best guess! Attachments:
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 23, 2023 6:38:43 GMT -6
Hello all! So, I found something interesting on when the “Forgotten Ravine” was filled in (although I don’t know if anyone is interested anymore – even I am losing interest!). Have not heard anything back from the National Park Service or other agencies I have sent stuff to. On the link provided below on P.36 of that report (2006) can be found two pictures. The first picture is a “cropped view” of the 1932 aerial photograph picture seen on previous posts on this thread. The second picture is another aerial view taken in 1935 after road development on the battlefield. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/2004scottfinalreport.pdfI have included unmarked pictures and then marked pictures of the ravine in 1932 and then in 1935 (or where I think it was located in the 1935 photograph!). So, it seems the “Forgotten Ravine” was filled in between 1932 and 1935. More than 88 years ago! No wonder no one knew about it!
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 23, 2023 8:00:09 GMT -6
Hello johnson1941
Thanks for your comments and support!
No, the guy who responded (the Dr. of Archeology) did not know anything about it. Although if anybody should have known anything about it, it should have been him (but that's another story!)
But oh well! I am just lucky that I figured the "Forgotten Ravine" thing out!
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Post by herosrest on Aug 23, 2023 8:20:58 GMT -6
A straightline along the southern boundary of National cemetery will extend directly into the feature of interest.
What do yo consider to be the distace from the southeast corner of NC to the point it transects the ravine?
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Post by lakotadan on Aug 23, 2023 10:14:56 GMT -6
Hello herosrest! From the SE corner of the National Cemetery to the center of the "bowl" or "basin" of the "Forgotten Ravine" looks to be around 980 feet. From the monument at LSH to the center looks to be around 1241 feet. Maybe you will get slightly different measurements. Pictures attached. Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Aug 24, 2023 11:25:09 GMT -6
Thanks for the data, it's so i'm looking at the right area (definately). I have looked at it before on the 1891 map and there is obviously water running off the flanks of the ridge east - west, and also down its length, during heavy rain and torrents from downpours. Anyway, your idea is basically that the ravine burial location is in amongst existing markers along the trail? Google MapI'm really just looking at it again for any insights although of course its a bit like paint drying. No inspiration yet though.
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