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Post by lakotadan on May 16, 2024 17:14:35 GMT -6
My good friend, herosrest.
You stated, “The image view is off down towards the river and ravine mouths above the river and towards Calhoun Coulee.” I would think those are the views you provided in your previous post. Although your views of the area show no prominent curve line of the markers as I have done and shown throughout this thread.
Although I respect you and your valuable opinions, I do not agree with you.
But I will not argue with you.
I have learned that (and this quote is from the internet) “arguing on the internet is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how smooth or strategic my moves are, the pigeon will just knock down all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it won.”
I fully believe my interpretation of the area, based on photographic proof that I have presented throughout this thread, is valid.
It will only take 2 core samples to determine if I am wrong or right!
With respect,
Dan
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Post by noggy on May 17, 2024 1:59:26 GMT -6
I'll just shoot in that while I ofc like the topic and LOVE lakotadan's passion for this, this thread has produced some great pictures I had not seen before. SO cheers for those, to everyone posting.
Noggy
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Post by lakotadan on May 17, 2024 15:42:30 GMT -6
Hello my friends! So, why am I still talking about this? I know many of you are probably saying “can’t this old, retired guy think of anything else better to do?”. Well, no! This forgotten ravine thing interests me to no end! Anyway, johnson1941 (in his last post) posted a picture of where he thinks the Forgotten ravine (gulch) was. I advised him that although he was close, the Forgotten ravine was further away from LSH. I have included his picture below. I have also included a Google map view with markup showing the features of johnson’s1941 picture (which shows a swale type feature marked in red), the direction (based on the curves of the Deep ravine trail) shown by a yellow arrow in the direction I think the picture was taken, and where the filled in Forgotten ravine is (outlined in blue). Now, when I was at the battlefield last year (which was super fun!) I was already talking on this forum about the Forgotten ravine. So, I took pictures (based on the placement of the soldier markers- picture included below- soldier markers along the Deep ravine trail and going over the Forgotten ravine are circled in red, Forgotten ravine (gulch) is outlined in blue) of where the filled in Forgotten ravine (gulch) is (with the picture I took looking towards the visitor’s center - also included below). In the picture I took, I placed a single blue line showing where there is still a significant dip in the area going over the filled in Forgotten ravine (gulch) which I encountered when walking on the Deep ravine trail. I know some of this stuff I posted before but going through 31 pages of a thread to find them (with my bad eyes!) is difficult! I also stated (somewhere in this thread!) how I think the Forgotten ravine was filled in to aid visitors walking over the battlefield so they wouldn’t encounter any soggy (or water filled) areas to walk over. Remember, in the years when the battlefield was a state park (and even in the years when it became a National Park) visitors were allowed to walk all over the battlefield! They were not confined to specific trails as we are today. Why am I still talking about this? I don’t know! I am just having fun! Maybe I should contact the National Park Service (NPS) and advise them I will pay to have 2 core samples done (not really, just a funny thought!). Also, disregard the last 2 pictures on this post. I don’t know how they got in there! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!! After I post this, I will have to take a short nap! Again, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!!!
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Post by lakotadan on May 18, 2024 15:14:08 GMT -6
Hello my friends! A little off topic here (so I apologize for that) but here it goes!
I don’t know if I ever described my experience on my first trip to the battlefield (about 10 months ago).
I took about 5 or 6 pages of paperwork with me (the first page was of Maguire’s map and where I think he indicated a piece of the “Forgotten ravine” at his “H” on the map). There was a park ranger giving a lecture. So, I waited till he was done and approached him with my paperwork. I showed him the first page of my research (Maguire’s map) and told him my thoughts. His immediate response was something like “No, you are wrong. That is the Deep ravine”. Then he walked away.
He didn’t even want to hear anything further I had to say! A lady in the first row of the seats for the presentation that was now over looked at me and stated something like “wow, you really did your homework”.
I mean the average visitor probably has very little knowledge of the battle. They listen to the person wearing the uniform that has a badge on their chest and assume that anything that person has to say must be correct! I mean those people are official representatives of the park, so they must be right!
I understand that the rangers have other things to do and other places to be. But not even giving a visitor 5 minutes (or less) of their time seems (at least to me at that time) to be rude.
But when knowledgeable people (like the members of this forum) visit the park, we go there with a different “view” of what may have happened. We look for different things. When I walked the Deep ravine trail, I took note of all the various undulating features and nuances of that trail (as it crossed what I think was the Forgotten ravine), something the average visitor wouldn’t even notice or care about.
When other members of this forum have gone there (or go there if they can) I am sure each one of us looks for different things. As you know, I am interested in the possibility of there being a “Forgotten ravine (gulch)”. Other members may be interested in the Keogh area, the Reno defense area, the LSH area, maybe even the vast flat area (on approach to the park- and not part of the park) where the NA’s had their village, or other such specific areas of interest.
I did take the one hour small bus tour given at the park (that was great!). I also saw the NA memorial and the memorial at LSH. Took pictues and had a great time!
Well, I am back in Wyoming and will go to Montana and again visit the LBH in a few months. And no, I will not be talking to any park rangers about my thoughts about a Forgotten ravine (gulch)!
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Post by noggy on May 19, 2024 6:02:23 GMT -6
Well, I am back in Wyoming and will go to Montana and again visit the LBH in a few months. And no, I will not be talking to any park rangers about my thoughts about a Forgotten ravine (gulch)! There may be many reasons for such behavior: They are tired after work, they are used to foolish questions/opinions/fan-boying etc, or just think of themselves as enough of an expert to not being willing to entertain other thoughts, theories or thoughts. That last one is an easy trap to fall into once you have worked with a subject lon enough, and "landed" on a conclusion. No matter what it is. At least for many people, it is hard starting to see stuff from other angles if you have spent enough time cementing your beliefs. i try to keep an open mind regardless, not that I would change football team or my sense of right and wrong, but even on subjects I feel knowledgeable about I hold the door open for input and the very real possibility that I am wrong. Partially or 100%. If I had worked on the LBH site for some decades, I hope I would welcome anyone with genuine interest and their ideas. People like that are free to decide what they want to listen to or not, so you are better of just keep on keeping on. I would think others there might be interested, I have never met people like Doerner (is he still alive?) but he and others seem genuinely interested in research and opinion. Noggy
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Post by herosrest on May 19, 2024 12:20:59 GMT -6
I hunted up a source for your Deep ravine mouth image, it's in Kuhlman's Legend. link - Scenes of destruction of E troop. I couldn't find any credits, however, his wife was a photographer who provided images for the book. link
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Post by lakotadan on May 19, 2024 13:07:11 GMT -6
Thanks herosrest!
Yes, the first image in the link you posted has already been placed (somewhere?) on this thread. One thing I did notice, that I hadn't noticed before, is that the caption states "the deep gulch". Now, by definition, a "gulch" is a small ravine and quite different from a regular type long and deeper "ravine". So my opinion is the picture is of an area of the Forgotten ravine (which I have renamed a "gulch" somewhere in this thread!) and not the Deep ravine. Like I said, I know I have already explained that somewhere on the 31 pages of this thread! But my old eyes cannot take looking back through all those pages!
Onward my friend! The adventure continues!
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Post by lakotadan on May 20, 2024 13:56:50 GMT -6
So, my friends,
I just happened to notice that there is an interim or new (?) superintendent of the Little Bighorn battlefield.
So, I am composing a short letter to send to the new superintendent about the Forgotten ravine (gulch).
I will probably mail it off tomorrow or the next day.
As always, I will keep the members informed of any replies to my correspondence.
If I am not trying, I am dying!!
Onward, and the adventure continues!
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Post by lakotadan on May 21, 2024 17:27:26 GMT -6
Well, my friends.
My latest attempt to try to convince the National Park Service to take 2 core samples of the minor geological area (and that I think played a significant role in the battle, and was filled in with dirt about 1935) that I define as the “Forgotten gulch” has been mailed!
Let us see what happens!
Onward!
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Post by noggy on May 22, 2024 1:25:57 GMT -6
Well, my friends. My latest attempt to try to convince the National Park Service to take 2 core samples of the minor geological area (and that I think played a significant role in the battle, and was filled in with dirt about 1935) that I define as the “Forgotten gulch” has been mailed! Let us see what happens! Onward! "GL", as the kids say ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Noggy
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Post by johnson1941 on May 22, 2024 9:17:59 GMT -6
See attached...WM Camp's "Deep Gully", where 28 men were found...from what they measured (with kanipe) - it was like +2000ft from LSH. It is now known as "Deep Ravine". ![](//storage.proboards.com/396523/thumbnailer/QocWkMlfznGuNTNSlyWp.png) ![](//storage.proboards.com/396523/thumbnailer/fbKqmeBMRteEjEaQEoew.png)
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Post by lakotadan on May 22, 2024 13:06:17 GMT -6
Yes my friend johnson1941.
I am certain you and I have already discussed that map somewhere else on this thread, as well as the 2000 feet thing from LSH! I am also fairly certain that I even marked on that map where I think the Forgotten gulch was (but I won't go back through 32 pages of thread to find it!). And I also understand that there could be a variation in one person calling it a gully (gulch or whatever!) on the maps and another person calling the same geological area a ravine.
However, like I stated a couple of times previously (somewhere in this thread!) it would only take 2 core samples to determine (what I now term as the Forgotten gulch) if it ever existed (and based on some of the photographic evidence presented throughout this thread - I am certain it did exist and played a significant role in the battle - but hey that is just me!).
If I am wrong, this has been an extremely educational and fun thread. If I am right, then the National Park Service has work to do!
Oh well, we will see if the NPS gets back to me on my latest correspondence!
The adventure continues!
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Post by lakotadan on May 30, 2024 7:26:35 GMT -6
Thanks herosrest for the map you included on the below website- teva.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15138coll23/id/178/I moved our discussion from the 2023 CBHMA thread to this thread because it was kind of off topic on that other thread. I have a question for you. Was that map drawn in 1876? Anyway, I am pretty sure I have seen that map before. But in reviewing that map again, it does present some interesting enigmas. When I look at a Google earth view of the battlefield, I notice that the Keogh marker is above and to the right of the Deep ravine. So, I placed a blue line on the map of where that Deep ravine should be on the map of 1876. The “26 were killed” shown on the map is below and to the left of Last Stand Hill. So, I placed a red line of where that would be (maybe on top of Cemetery ridge or in the Cemetery ridge ravine?). So, when comparing the map to a Google earth view it is easy to tell that the map of 1876 does not put any “killed” markers in the Deep ravine but places them along Cemetery ridge (or in the Cemetery ridge ravine?) and shows many markers below the Cemetery ridge ravine just above the river. I have included the map of 1876 (?) and a Google earth view below with the blue and red markups as indicated above. But I didn’t know how to save it as an enlarged area (I have no computer skills!). So, you will have to zoom in on the tiny picture! Just another enigma is presented by the map and a conjecture on my part! Onward! Attachments:![](//storage.proboards.com/396523/thumbnailer/gYoAuBnmLQPqrjCAqYfW.png)
![](//storage.proboards.com/396523/thumbnailer/sYWzeRPKHHrgsKzoYJaE.png)
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Post by herosrest on May 30, 2024 8:01:19 GMT -6
This may help LINK but probably not. The bottom line is that there are many ideas and theories since get go and that snowball is one that sits well upon this battlefield. Now, the map can be assumed to date with Buell, at Ft. Custer between summer 1877 and the riverboat wrecks which stranded Buell's taskforce on the Yellowstone before making their way to the mouth of LBH; and his departure to take up command of the 15th U.S. Infantry Regiment, promoted to colonel on March 20, 1879. It was at this period that the cordwood monument was undertaken by Kaiser Sanderson, and Buell was travelling to his new command. The origin of the map is a devil to research with only simple initials at bottom left. I believe I have pinned him down in records and that research is snail's pace but ongoing. I won't divulge yet but you should take it that the map is legit, and military, and simply interpretation of what was seen on the ground before Buell left in 1879. My interest with it is primarily the valley fight, with the shetch being one of two period items showing that Otter Ck. above Garryowen did not exist at the time of the battle - and was not Reno's ditch. linkThe deployment shows skirmish on the north and south flanks of the ridge and escape into Deep Ravine. That's what I see but of course this is someone wandering along looking at the post battle evidence and surmising an advance or retreat along Greasy Grass Ridge across Calhoun Coulee and onto monument hill. I pondered the crosses at the river mouth of Deep Ravine and best guess to date, is horse bones found there. There is evidence from participants that animals fled that route in stampede and metal detecting the area in 2010, I think, found nothing but the work was next to impossible because of thick vegitation. There is sufficient terrain detail given that the observations cannot be summarily dismissed and for example, there is timber shown along the river at the mouth of Deep Coulee and MTC, which is huge. From Luce, and NC ridges - you cannot see diddly squat across the river in the valley where the village stood. For me then, Custer went on Greasy Grass Hill. He might have gone to Calhoun Hill first but that offers a poor view of the fords. Also, the ideas exhibited by the map, were generally in keeping with the three theories of events at that time - Clockwise, counter-clockwise, and both, besides the Terry's idea given in the June 27th first report; which one should assume was Benteen's idea of things at that date. Regards. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on May 30, 2024 8:34:56 GMT -6
When students of this battle become enthused and take matters on, it is not treated lightly by NPS and the various strands of administration with responsibilities for the land and lives of those upon and in it. The battlefield is ultimately a cemetery and stood as one, known as one, before institution and inauguration of the national cemetery and monument. The dead were (in essencce) buried where they fell although a conspiracy theory or two could be contrived about it. I link a recent Case File relevant to administrating the battlefield and duties involved. Here LINK is a useful NPS link. Interest in the battle is not taken lightly by those with administrative responsibility but they gain advice and opinion from the relevant experts. I am still determined to convince the World that our planet is flat like a disk and those on the bottom of it are in the dark. On February 24, 2024; The Friends of the Little Bighorn Battlefield gave notice of grant of $25,000 from a Montana foundation which wished to remain anonymous. Friends donated 100% of the gift to the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument for construction of the new Visitor Center. This generous grant of $25K is the highest amount Friends has donated to the battlefield. It is also most important to the future success of Friends. It enhances Friends credibility for future grants from other foundations. What could possibly go wrong?
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