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Post by lakotadan on Oct 14, 2023 7:02:25 GMT -6
johnson1941-
I think the problem stems from some inaccurate maps (as discussed previously). Also the number of bodies found at actually two different locations. 18 to 24 bodies at where Chief Lame White Man killed the troopers (and I believe that was where the cemetery ridge ravine meets the forgotten ravine) is very close (in numbers) to the 28 bodies in the deep ravine.
I can see where possible confusion came in with marking maps and interpretting what occurred. Which area were they trying to depict? The deep ravine or the cemetery ridge ravine? Were there actually 24 bodies in the deep ravine or 28? Were there actually 28 bodies were Chief Lame White Man attacked or were there 24?
The legend of Maguire's map states that at "H"- "many bodies found here". How "many bodies" were found? Where exactly was "here"? Can anyone know for sure?
I had (again in a previous post) marked "H" and "H1" on a Google earth view of the battlefield for both locations. Maybe that is the way to go?
Probably all those soldiers remains of both those ravine intersections with the forgotten ravine feature were removed or "washed out" long ago.
I also believe that when the troopers that buried the dead "kicked dirt from the side of the ravine to cover the bodies" that was the forgotten ravine.
But I have no "solid evidence" for any of this. If I did - or if there was solid evidence (other than the reference verifying that the 'H" is on cemetery ridge ravine - but again is that "H" or should that be "H1"?) someone may have found a landscape type variation on the battlefield long ago.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 14, 2023 7:40:14 GMT -6
That was it. Greene's book on the battleground history confirms the dump and gives a location by distance which falls short by two about thirds unless there was a typo. Core samples might reveal a sardine or two and remains of tinned goods but equally, based upon limited data available (to us) would not justify blowing noses. The entire battlefield is, and was, a cemetery. That is, the Custer battlefield and sacred as such, to many more than descendants of the military casualties. Now, it wasn't considered in that way until the later 1950's when Rickey slowly ushered in newer and less divisive outlook, but that didn't prevent the odd rumpus and bad feeling about the land. A number of the markers correctly belong on ground several miles away upriver, but, that is not the 'only' correct which applies at Little Bighorn and everywhere, really. There are so many differed opinions and influences at play, and previously practiced, besides the implications of costs and simply selling a good idea that perhaps the best way to go about this is to canvas all visitors for 18 months and garner a half a million signatures to a petition. That done, then all you have to do is sell it to your rep at congress, NPS, and hell...... probably the boss in time for 2016 and the 150th. Ya need a plan.......... I suggest crossing the river at A and dashing for the village.........
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 14, 2023 7:56:48 GMT -6
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 14, 2023 8:19:38 GMT -6
Thanks johnson1941!
Great stuff! But the definitons of the landscape features and the assumption that they are deep ravine could be subject to interpretation.
Anyway, as I have mentioned before, Michno's book also has a lot of eyewitness accounts describing landscape features and the "action" that took place at those features.
It is a great book (my opinion-and maybe because I agree with his conclusions!).
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 14, 2023 18:15:05 GMT -6
Hello all!
So, it seems to me that this thread is now getting very repetitious!
Everything that I had to say about the Forgotten Ravine has already been stated in my previous posts.
It is of no use repeating everything again and again in response to the same (or similar) questions and statements!
At times, I have tried to back up my thoughts and opinions with research and stated references (hey, I gave it my best try!).
Unless any new and relevant information comes to light (and it might since I just ordered “Lakota Noon: The Indian Narrative of Custer’s Defeat”- first published in 1997-by Gregory Michno!) I am out of here (before October 15th – as rosebud stated that is when the thread will be done!).
I still steadfastly stand behind my idea and thoughts about the Forgotten Ravine!
So, my friends, bye (for now!).
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Post by herosrest on Oct 15, 2023 12:28:27 GMT -6
I guess that 2100 feet is Kanipe to WMC, and the bearing is all WMC.
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 22, 2023 17:48:15 GMT -6
So, rosebud was correct! I am the only one (after October 15th) still talking about the Forgotten Ravine!
But I have been reading “Lakota Noon The Indian Narrative of Custer’s Defeat” by Gregory F. Michno, seventh printing June 2011, by MP Mountain Pres Publishing Company. It is (so far) a great read!
In his section of “Cutting the Ridge, 5:30-5:40” under “Discussion” on page 209 he states “In the north, the combination of Lame White man-suicide attack had overwhelmed Company E on the low divide between Cemetery Ravine and Deep Ravine. A few fugitives may have run for cover in Deep Ravine, but the majority of survivors fought their way back uphill”.
So, the Forgotten Ravine (as shown in pictures on my previous posts) connected the Cemetery Ridge Ravine (Michno calls it the Cemetery Ravine) and the Deep Ravine and it may be that "low divide" that the eyewitnesses are talking about?
It seems that Company E was fighting between Cemetery Ravine and Deep Ravine. Exactly in the area (or close to it) where I believe the Forgotten Ravine was located.
Anyway, at best everything is just conjecture. Even from “eyewitnesses” whose testimony may not be exact or correct.
Just some more interesting stuff!
I have also sent a follow-up email to the National Park Service. Maybe I will hear back from them, or maybe not!
Anyway, I will let the members of the forum know one way or the other!
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 24, 2023 5:22:05 GMT -6
A picture may help some locate this... Think this is what Michno is referring to...If so your ravine would be across this.
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 24, 2023 6:21:05 GMT -6
Hello johnson1941!
In the top picture you included and marked, I think you are close to the forgotten ravine or maybe it is a little further back between the two low ridges.
In the picture with the "Lame White Man" marker, I think the ravine would be further down and off to the right of Deep Ravine (which is going down the middle of that picture).
Of interest in the above mentiond book by Michno (again on page 209) he gives justification of the area of Lame White Man's attack as having occurred on the divide between Cemetery Ravine and Deep Ravine and down the slope from LSH. I also mentioned and have shown that area in previous posts (page 10 of this thread - the caption under one of those pictures describes the attack by Lame White Man). So, perhaps Lame White Man's marker is in the wrong place?
In your third picture with the two native american markers, I think that picture is "way off" in that it appears to be taken to the north-east (as near as I can figure) of LSH and along battle ridge (slightly below it). The ravine would be "down the hill" below LSH and towards the south-west (but that is not shown in the picture).
Thanks for the assist!
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Post by herosrest on Oct 26, 2023 14:03:53 GMT -6
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 26, 2023 14:52:45 GMT -6
Thanks herosrest for the link and picture. I know I probably won't hear anything back further from the NPS, but I haven't changed my thoughts or ideas about the Forgotten Ravine! Now, in the picture in your link. Although it was taken in 1975 (and the ravine was probably filled in about 1935) you can still make out where the ravine was located (because it is a nice aerial type photo). I have indicated where the ravine was between the blue markups, and circled the monument on LSH in red. You can see where the ravine was and where it attached to and emptied into the cemetery ridge ravine, I believe the other side of the ravine emptied into the deep ravine (but you cannot see that in the aerial photo). Thanks! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 26, 2023 15:48:30 GMT -6
1936...
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 26, 2023 16:05:53 GMT -6
Thanks johnson1941! I am pleased that I am still getting some valuable assistance on this! Thanks all! So, in your 1936 photo (ravine was probably filled in about 1935). I have indicated with blue dashes (in front of a low ridge) or black dashes (behind the low ridge) where the filled in ravine was located. Difficult to discern in that photo. So it is just my best guess (but I am going for the blue dashes!). Thanks! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 26, 2023 16:12:13 GMT -6
Careful - dont put the ravine under the markers - they were there for a while.
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Post by lakotadan on Oct 26, 2023 16:31:28 GMT -6
My friend johnson1941.
You stated "dont put the ravine under the markers-they were there for a while". Very interesting and a "challenge"!
If you show me what you mean in the picture that you included, I will try to justify (if I can) the location of the ravine.
Upon some serious "zoom" I did notice some markers that today are along the deep ravine trail. Is that what you were referring to?
This is fun!
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