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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 18:22:53 GMT -6
Seniority worked the way it did.......... a lot of guys were truly pissed at Custer being jumped over them. Reno had a regiment during CW in '65, one of the Pennsylvania units, he tangled with Mosby and it did not go well. He blamed a shave-tail and cashiered him. Such is life. As a youngster he wrote to the President asking to be a cavalry officer and was sent to Benny Haven's Tavern. Writing to the top men seems to have stayed with him. He struggled, was slung out drunk but persevered and got through. His dream really was to lead his own cavalry regiment. That's what he was all about. A fine ambition. Men and horses...........
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Post by dave on Mar 11, 2015 19:49:26 GMT -6
HR said
Hi Dave.
I've had to sit back and deeply consider your response, which I found amazing. Quite remarkable. You can end preposition with a sentence. I'm sure that's what you mean, when you meant it.
Benteen is a sum of two parts with a lot of wiggle room built in, as his opinions and detail changed due to criticism of his part in the attack at LBH. Terry wasn't concerned that Benteen decided not to go to the Big ?Village and so he was off the hook for being responsible for the massacre, until Whittaker raised full insuit in accusation against Benteen. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings.
The circumstances of the Reno Inquiry led Reno to discredit the time data which Whittaker offered in reasoned argument (in his book) as proof that Reno and Benteen deserted Custer. Benteen quite amazingly then offered his incompetance as his defence. He didn't know where the valley was and couldn't find it. When he did, the fighting was over and he didn't know what was going on, anyway. Someone told him that the hostiles had skeedadled, possibly an itinerant Italian musician who could not speak the language and did not know the time of day or of the place.
You really must do better. D+
ex military or combat vets do not support conjecture. They do not know how. They simply do as they are told.
Griffiths said spell it out loud!
HR I would reply but for the life of me I do not where to begin. I will try to do better than a D+ next time if there ever is one and I kind of doubt it. It hurts to much to cross to the other side and back. Regards Dave
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 12, 2015 5:40:23 GMT -6
HR if you was one of Benteen’s men and saw hundreds of hostile moving away, would you like to follow them, would you relish the prospect of being ordered by Edgerly to follow Weir, don’t forget you have only 44 other blokes with you and you could quite easily be jumped by a couple of hundred Sioux, and I bet the troops in K and H felt the same.
Ian.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Mar 12, 2015 13:23:34 GMT -6
Seniority worked the way it did.......... a lot of guys were truly pissed at Custer being jumped over them. Reno had a regiment during CW in '65, one of the Pennsylvania units, he tangled with Mosby and it did not go well. He blamed a shave-tail and cashiered him. Such is life. As a youngster he wrote to the President asking to be a cavalry officer and was sent to Benny Haven's Tavern. Writing to the top men seems to have stayed with him. He struggled, was slung out drunk but persevered and got through. His dream really was to lead his own cavalry regiment. That's what he was all about. A fine ambition. Men and horses........... I think I've asked this before but I'll ask it again. If Custer had not been allowed to lead the 7th how might the 1876 campaign have been different with Reno commanding the 7th? Speculation, I know, but an interesting question. Let's say everything goes the same until June 22nd and Terry detaches the 7th on its part of the mission to find the NA village.
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shaw
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Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Mar 12, 2015 13:25:45 GMT -6
Of course I recognize that "They Died With Their Boots On" (1941) probably never would have been made. ;-)
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Post by jodak on Mar 12, 2015 13:48:53 GMT -6
I don't believe that Reno leading the regiment on the campaign was ever a considered alternative, with or without Custer's presence. As I recall, when Reno made his request to lead the regiment Terry informed him that he had other under-employed colonels available that he could utilize in temporary command. Therefore, Custer's return removed command from one of their hands - not Reno's.
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Post by welshofficer on Mar 12, 2015 14:01:14 GMT -6
Not sure Reno leading the regiment was ever a realistic option, and Terry would have accompanied if he had.
Wasn't GAC possibly worried about accepting Brisbin's cavalry battalion because he thought Terry would then accompany the column...?
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 12, 2015 14:36:52 GMT -6
Seniority worked the way it did.......... a lot of guys were truly pissed at Custer being jumped over them. Reno had a regiment during CW in '65, one of the Pennsylvania units, he tangled with Mosby and it did not go well. He blamed a shave-tail and cashiered him. Such is life. As a youngster he wrote to the President asking to be a cavalry officer and was sent to Benny Haven's Tavern. Writing to the top men seems to have stayed with him. He struggled, was slung out drunk but persevered and got through. His dream really was to lead his own cavalry regiment. That's what he was all about. A fine ambition. Men and horses........... I think I've asked this before but I'll ask it again. If Custer had not been allowed to lead the 7th how might the 1876 campaign have been different with Reno commanding the 7th? Speculation, I know, but an interesting question. Let's say everything goes the same until June 22nd and Terry detaches the 7th on its part of the mission to find the NA village. Reno, was not up for the gig, see next post as it is correct. jodak, is correct, even employed LTC's were considered, to include Merritt.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 12, 2015 14:44:05 GMT -6
Of course I recognize that "They Died With Their Boots On" (1941) probably never would have been made. ;-) I probably would not be here without that.
Regards, Tom
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Post by montrose on Mar 12, 2015 14:56:28 GMT -6
The best available officer was COL Sturgis. He was sent back to the regiment after the battle.
Or send Reno to command a depot or something, and let the senior Captain run the regiment. Politically, this was not feasible, but imagine if Benteen led the 7th.
Terry should have appointed a new commander for the 7th in September, when GAC decided he wanted to take care of personal business for 9 months. Terry was too nice, he lacked backbone and was unable to discipline his subordinates.
So what if Crook commanded instead of Terry? Or even Miles. Reno wouldn't be at LBH, because he would be back at FAL under arrest for disobeying orders on the scout And Crook or Miles would not be sitting on a boat, they would accompany their main effort. Terry is a FOBbit, a term used for people who stay inside the wire at the forward operating base. That is not where he should have been.
Or what if Sheridan was with the Dakota column. With 2 departments involved, he should have gone where he could provide command and control.
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Post by dave on Mar 12, 2015 17:14:45 GMT -6
Motrose Would Benteen as a commander of the 7th been capable and successful or would he have become like Hood and AP Hill did when promoted above the division command level? I know he had the professional abilities but could he have survived the political machinations? He has always struck me as a man who could not tolerate the so called "dandies" and those you called "FOBbits." Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 17:41:02 GMT -6
Personally I don't think he had the political machinations. He doesn't seem like the type who would be to comfortably glad hand and smooze people he didn't respect any more than he had to. I suspect that he could be charming though when he needed to be.
Or is that just me trying to put my own spin on his character. I would have to admit that at an event with Custer, Reno and Benteen, I would be most drawn to Benteen. I think that Custer would have been exhausting to be around and a wall flower like I am would be lost in his blazing glory. I suspect that Reno might not have been as gloomy and wimpy as history seems to portray him but I enjoy most being around people who have a quirky sense of humor. Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 12, 2015 17:56:55 GMT -6
Opinion only. He would have worked with Terry, contained the NA's from escaping south. He was a team player. Look at ACW record. Took no spit.
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Mar 12, 2015 17:58:14 GMT -6
HR if you was one of Benteen’s men and saw hundreds of hostile moving away, would you like to follow them, would you relish the prospect of being ordered by Edgerly to follow Weir, don’t forget you have only 44 other blokes with you and you could quite easily be jumped by a couple of hundred Sioux, and I bet the troops in K and H felt the same. Ian. It would certainly have been an interesting with Benteen in command, I suspect most would agree that but........... he was a cautious guy, who could spot and advantage opportunity. It is broadly accepted nee understood that dividing the regiment as was done, brought disaster. That obviously wasn' Custer's intention but once Reno was beyond his line of sight, the game was over. I don't believe that opinion is often given but it is relevant since communicating took time by messenger. Dave - 'It hurts to much to cross to the other side and back.' - Custer seems to have reached similar conclusion, twice. HR if you was one of Benteen’s men and saw hundreds of hostile moving away, would you like to follow them, would you relish the prospect of being ordered by Edgerly to follow Weir, don’t forget you have only 44 other blokes with you and you could quite easily be jumped by a couple of hundred Sioux, and I bet the troops in K and H felt the same. Ian. Interesting but as far as is known, they had no real idea of the hornets nest stirred up by the attack. Benteen's men seem to have had an abiding respect for him, his subordinate commanders as well. Weir and Edgerley were up for the mission, as were Reno's when they moved out across the river offering furlough for the first scalp. They were approaching Ford A as the retreat developed in front of them and but for that, faced an opposed river crossing if they were detected. One of the toughest jobs that there is. I find it hard to believe Reno intended the retreat crossing, rather being forced into it and not allowed to strike ford A. There was a really interesting situation that worked against the cavalry as it unfolded. The only result which allowed the engaged hostiles to disengage, was that which materialised. I'm not certain without digging up reference, what effective strength was to hand with Weir and Edgerley but it is interesting that not one comment from any of them, gives the supposed battle as developed by Marquis and many since and which Whittaker so elequently placed into the national psyche with his pulp fiction battle and pure lies about Curly and the blankets. Hare thought the LSH fight might have been closing. No-one else commented other than hostiles milling about, a huge circle closing on a hilltop and warriors galloping about in uniforms and celebrating guidons and flags. Weir by eye-ball was ready to mount and ride over to join Custer until Flanagan lifted field glasses and indentified the gallopers in the distance as hostiles. Call it 44 men with Weir, and not a word for the rest of their lives. That speaks volumes, i'm affraid. Not all of Camp's interviews have yet been published so their is always hope............. ahem. On current evidence, Whittakers forlorn survivors hunkered down behind their bloating mounts is dreamers blowing bubbles. Runs the Enemy, fought, captured horses, returned to the fight until conclusion, rode into the valley and located his family, whooped it up and then looking east saw the movement towards Reno beginning. Added - Once Grant had been prompted into preventing Custer going on the expedition, Command of 7th Cavalry was open to anyone that Terry preferred. I remember this from the various history and biographies of Grant. It would have to be a col, or Lt. Col in command 'cos that's the way it worked. In the field, if something happened to Custer then Reno was bumped. Exactly what happened. A rather expensive promotion but he felt that he was worth it. He certainly let grant know that.
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Post by Beth on Mar 12, 2015 18:05:19 GMT -6
Opinion only. He would have worked with Terry, contained the NA's from escaping south. He was a team player. Look at ACW record. Took no spit. Regards, Tom I am sure you are right. I know I find it hard sometimes to figure out what Benteen, Reno, and Custer would have been really like and not how they have painted by history.
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