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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 11, 2015 5:34:30 GMT -6
I am sorry but I feel like I am in an episode of “the twilight zone” here is what I mean;
Tom says: Good Morning HR, I can see you are in fine form! HR replies: I have little choice at the moment, my printer ran out of black ink. Life is like that!
Hmmm I must check on my black ink situation, if it has ran out my posts will suddenly go worse than what they already are. HR you remind me of a blind man who rubs his fingertips across a cheese grater and says “wow that’s the most violent book I have ever read”
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 5:37:41 GMT -6
HR When and where was Benteen was told to pitch in? (I don't hold with the dicta that you can't end a sentence with a preposition) Are we looking at different notes from Cooke? The supposition that if "only 10 minutes more" is just that supposition. There is no proof and even more telling none of the ex military or combat vets on this board that I am aware of have supported that conjecture. I think you are making up the pitch in theory . Regards Dave Hi Dave. I've had to sit back and deeply consider your response, which I found amazing. Quite remarkable. You can end preposition with a sentence. I'm sure that's what you mean, when you meant it. Benteen is a sum of two parts with a lot of wiggle room built in, as his opinions and detail changed due to criticism of his part in the attack at LBH. Terry wasn't concerned that Benteen decided not to go to the Big ?Village and so he was off the hook for being responsible for the massacre, until Whittaker raised full insuit in accusation against Benteen. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings. The circumstances of the Reno Inquiry led Reno to discredit the time data which Whittaker offered in reasoned argument (in his book) as proof that Reno and Benteen deserted Custer. Benteen quite amazingly then offered his incompetance as his defence. He didn't know where the valley was and couldn't find it. When he did, the fighting was over and he didn't know what was going on, anyway. Someone told him that the hostiles had skeedadled, possibly an itinerant Italian musician who could not speak the language and did not know the time of day or of the place. You really must do better. D+ ex military or combat vets do not support conjecture. They do not know how. They simply do as they are told. Griffiths said spell it out loud! Benteen is a very interesting character. In one regard he attempted to place himself on a pedestal as the savior of the 7th Cavalry. In his own words, he claimed to have disobeyed Custer orders with regards to the scout, belittled the order even, and returned to the main trail where he believed he would be needed. As obvious attempt to elevate himself at the expense of Custer. Kanipe passes with word to speed the pack train, followed by Martini with the order. From this point on, he conveniently becomes clueless. No idea what Custer is asking him to do, so he basically does nothing. Arrives at Reno Hill and places himself under Reno thus conveniently nulling the GAC order. He makes no attempt to make contact with Custer. He then allows Weir, by his own hook, to take his company off the skirmish line and head north. He then decides to follow, ignoring multiple calls from Reno to return. An uncoordinated fiasco that could have seen the entire 7th Cav wiped out. He, by his own words, disobeyed orders from both Custer and Reno yet faced no disciplinary action. Fortunately for him, the army wanted no part in further embarrassing themselves.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 11, 2015 6:01:46 GMT -6
I am sorry but I feel like I am in an episode of “the twilight zone” here is what I mean; Tom says: Good Morning HR, I can see you are in fine form! HR replies: I have little choice at the moment, my printer ran out of black ink. Life is like that!Hmmm I must check on my black ink situation, if it has ran out my posts will suddenly go worse than what they already are. HR you remind me of a blind man who rubs his fingertips across a cheese grater and says “wow that’s the most violent book I have ever read” Ian. Ian, you are priceless! Your last comment belongs in the boards Hall of Fame!
Regards, tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 11, 2015 6:06:30 GMT -6
Thanks Tom!
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 11, 2015 8:07:00 GMT -6
Colt45 - Benteen perfectly well understood that the village in the valley up ahead was being attacked by 7th avalry and that he was a part of that attack. Your lack of understanding of the orders or the note written by Cooke is unfortunate but you should stop apologising for Custer's mistakes. Benteen didn't do too ell and obviously also had a very poor grasp of what he was meant to do. Even Gibson understood that the regiment, his battalion and company, and himself, were hunting Sitting Bull's village in LBH valley and that it was being attacked. This was before Benteen marced to the left. Isn't your position on Benteen rather ridiculous? He knew where the valley was. I would guess that your idea, opinion even, is that Benteen was meant to ride east of the river and go to Ford B. It's surprising how many people get that idea. Are you one of those? Obviously, Custer did not order Reno to retreat from the valley. No one knew that would happen until it happened, and Benteen was to do what, in your opinion. Ride east of the river to Ford B while Reno waved 'hello' up to him on the bluffs whilst fighting the hostile hordes in the valley? Brilliant. But I don't think that Custer or Benteen were that brilliant, were they? Amazing how you know what was in Benteen's mind so you can know that he understood the village was being attacked and he was supposed to be a part of it. I understand the note just fine, it isn't specific where it needs to be. And I certainly don't apologize for Custer's mistakes. How you come to that conclusion is beyond me. In any event, I asked you for your evidence to back up your wild assumptions and you haven't even come close to that. I never mentioned anything about Benteen going to ford B. Where do you get that from, the same place you get your knowledge of what is in Benteen's mind? I had no idea you were communing with the dear departed and they were imparting to you all the knowledge of what happened on 25 Jun 1876. And just so you know, I am a former Army officer (Cavalry/Armor) so I do understand things miltary, especially how to give an unambiguous order.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 11, 2015 9:07:39 GMT -6
HR When and where was Benteen was told to pitch in? (I don't hold with the dicta that you can't end a sentence with a preposition) Are we looking at different notes from Cooke? The supposition that if "only 10 minutes more" is just that supposition. There is no proof and even more telling none of the ex military or combat vets on this board that I am aware of have supported that conjecture. I think you are making up the pitch in theory . Regards Dave Hi Dave. I've had to sit back and deeply consider your response, which I found amazing. Quite remarkable. You can end preposition with a sentence. I'm sure that's what you mean, when you meant it. Benteen is a sum of two parts with a lot of wiggle room built in, as his opinions and detail changed due to criticism of his part in the attack at LBH. Terry wasn't concerned that Benteen decided not to go to the Big ?Village and so he was off the hook for being responsible for the massacre, until Whittaker raised full insuit in accusation against Benteen. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings. The circumstances of the Reno Inquiry led Reno to discredit the time data which Whittaker offered in reasoned argument (in his book) as proof that Reno and Benteen deserted Custer. Benteen quite amazingly then offered his incompetance as his defence. He didn't know where the valley was and couldn't find it. When he did, the fighting was over and he didn't know what was going on, anyway. Someone told him that the hostiles had skeedadled, possibly an itinerant Italian musician who could not speak the language and did not know the time of day or of the place. You really must do better. D+ ex military or combat vets do not support conjecture. They do not know how. They simply do as they are told. Griffiths said spell it out loud! You are drinking to much HR. You have been discredited by Whitaker himself. "With regard, however, to COL. BENTEEN, the case is different I have heretofore publicly charged Col. Benteen with disobedience of an order sent by Gen. Custer to move up to his support "quickly. " I learned from this man for the first time that Col. Benteen took the trot on his advance, From the moment that he reached the hill and reported to Maj. Reno his responsibility ceased. I therefore desire to state, as publicly as I made the accusation, that I consider Col. Benteen wholly blameless for the disaster of the Little Big Horn; and I have already so stated in my application to the Senate. I make this correction in justice both to the living and the dead. That is all I care about saying at present." So now you know that the following is a false statement on your part. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings.
Regards Benteeneast
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 16:09:07 GMT -6
I am sorry but I feel like I am in an episode of “the twilight zone” here is what I mean; Tom says: Good Morning HR, I can see you are in fine form! HR replies: I have little choice at the moment, my printer ran out of black ink. Life is like that!Hmmm I must check on my black ink situation, if it has ran out my posts will suddenly go worse than what they already are. HR you remind me of a blind man who rubs his fingertips across a cheese grater and says “wow that’s the most violent book I have ever read” Ian. It ran out of ink.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 16:14:54 GMT -6
Colt45 - Benteen perfectly well understood that the village in the valley up ahead was being attacked by 7th avalry and that he was a part of that attack. Your lack of understanding of the orders or the note written by Cooke is unfortunate but you should stop apologising for Custer's mistakes. Benteen didn't do too ell and obviously also had a very poor grasp of what he was meant to do. Even Gibson understood that the regiment, his battalion and company, and himself, were hunting Sitting Bull's village in LBH valley and that it was being attacked. This was before Benteen marced to the left. Isn't your position on Benteen rather ridiculous? He knew where the valley was. I would guess that your idea, opinion even, is that Benteen was meant to ride east of the river and go to Ford B. It's surprising how many people get that idea. Are you one of those? Obviously, Custer did not order Reno to retreat from the valley. No one knew that would happen until it happened, and Benteen was to do what, in your opinion. Ride east of the river to Ford B while Reno waved 'hello' up to him on the bluffs whilst fighting the hostile hordes in the valley? Brilliant. But I don't think that Custer or Benteen were that brilliant, were they? Amazing how you know what was in Benteen's mind so you can know that he understood the village was being attacked and he was supposed to be a part of it. I understand the note just fine, it isn't specific where it needs to be. And I certainly don't apologize for Custer's mistakes. How you come to that conclusion is beyond me. In any event, I asked you for your evidence to back up your wild assumptions and you haven't even come close to that. I never mentioned anything about Benteen going to ford B. Where do you get that from, the same place you get your knowledge of what is in Benteen's mind? I had no idea you were communing with the dear departed and they were imparting to you all the knowledge of what happened on 25 Jun 1876. And just so you know, I am a former Army officer (Cavalry/Armor) so I do understand things miltary, especially how to give an unambiguous order. There was an officer's call which benteen attended on the morning of 25th June 1876, at which he was advised that Custer intended to attack the village up ahead which had been seen in the LBH valley, where Terry believed it would be and had sent Custer to attack it. Did all this just elude Benteen? What was he there for? You are defending Custer by diverting the issues onto the stupidity surrounding Benteen not knowing what to do. What was he there for?
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 16:27:02 GMT -6
Hi Dave. I've had to sit back and deeply consider your response, which I found amazing. Quite remarkable. You can end preposition with a sentence. I'm sure that's what you mean, when you meant it. Benteen is a sum of two parts with a lot of wiggle room built in, as his opinions and detail changed due to criticism of his part in the attack at LBH. Terry wasn't concerned that Benteen decided not to go to the Big ?Village and so he was off the hook for being responsible for the massacre, until Whittaker raised full insuit in accusation against Benteen. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings. The circumstances of the Reno Inquiry led Reno to discredit the time data which Whittaker offered in reasoned argument (in his book) as proof that Reno and Benteen deserted Custer. Benteen quite amazingly then offered his incompetance as his defence. He didn't know where the valley was and couldn't find it. When he did, the fighting was over and he didn't know what was going on, anyway. Someone told him that the hostiles had skeedadled, possibly an itinerant Italian musician who could not speak the language and did not know the time of day or of the place. You really must do better. D+ ex military or combat vets do not support conjecture. They do not know how. They simply do as they are told. Griffiths said spell it out loud! You are drinking to much HR. You have been discredited by Whitaker himself. "With regard, however, to COL. BENTEEN, the case is different I have heretofore publicly charged Col. Benteen with disobedience of an order sent by Gen. Custer to move up to his support "quickly. " I learned from this man for the first time that Col. Benteen took the trot on his advance, From the moment that he reached the hill and reported to Maj. Reno his responsibility ceased. I therefore desire to state, as publicly as I made the accusation, that I consider Col. Benteen wholly blameless for the disaster of the Little Big Horn; and I have already so stated in my application to the Senate. I make this correction in justice both to the living and the dead. That is all I care about saying at present." So now you know that the following is a false statement on your part. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings.
Regards Benteeneast That was Whittaker's conclusion based upon his assessment of the data available to him. The data was good but he did not go to Benteen and Reno for an explanation or give them the light of day in fact. I am not Whittaker, although he was a very fine novelist and rivaled perhaps only by the likes of R.E. Howard. That aside, Benteen arrived about 2pm near the village and found Reno retreating. If Reno hadn't retreated, what do you think Benteen would have done? Would he have joined Reno, fighting in the valley? He was not awaiting the pack train, was he? We should assume that he would, don't you think go to Reno's assistance in the valley. There is some evidence to suggest Benteen was going to go to Reno in the valley, although he stated he did not know which cavalry unit he was looking at, it was recognised as a cavalry unit.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 16:48:28 GMT -6
I stated - Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings.
Read more: lbha.proboards.com/thread/4909/benteens-dilemma?page=4#ixzz3U7QqjT9Y
Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm. That is precisely the thrust of Whittaker's accusation in his book, published in late 1876. Whittaker recanted in 1879, when the Reno Inquiry was under way, and the information being provided in testimony, undermined his research and its conclusions. Specifically, Walllace offered times which today still confound everyone interested in the battle. Now, I know that you know this. You know, I know, you know it, but you are having some problems accepting it because you seem to think that I am Whittaker. I am not. Let me make that clear. Go shout at him - take a shovel.
Benteen knew there was a river ahead, a place to obtain nice fresh, cool, mountain run off. Comment was that the water was refreshingly freezing. If Benteen had been quicker or Reno slower, they would have faced the fight in the valley together. Therefore, Reno was supported but did not await his support. Of course Benteen had to get across the river and advance to Reno and that would have been resisted if his approach was detected but that obviously was Custer's intention and therefore his plan. We know what Benteen was doing, we know what Reno was doing but not Custer. Since Custer was in command and knew what the detached units were meant to be doing, he could plan accordingly. At one point, that plan was for his companies to cross the river and join the fighting. There would then have been elen companies in action, with two more arriving to ford A.
That is a very different tactical problem for both sides of the conflict, to what transpired. Whittaker accused Benteen of dawdling and further stated that not going to Custer quickly after joining Reno was a dereliction of duty. He did this in December 1876, and that is that. That is what he did and I have pointed it out again. That led Reno to wait a couple of years until he could not be court martialled and then request a Court of Inquiry, because Whittaker maintained his accusations against Reno and in fact, went out of his way to ensure that Reno answered for events at LBH. This duly occured.
Sorry for bold, didn't mean to shout.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 11, 2015 17:03:48 GMT -6
HR, you really think Whitaker is creditable? Was he trying to get it on L. Custer or just a muckraker?
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 17:39:07 GMT -6
It's a difficult one, he was a complex guy and much better connected and respected than is given. He edited and published in Army and Navy Journal, was a good novelist in the dime genre and he really could work his prose in a cause. He caused absolute havoc for Curley with the blankets story, which is far more darstardly than really understood. The thrust was Curley offered to sneak Custer out of the fight under a blanket but of course Custer chose to die with his men. The reality was that Curley had met Custer only days before, spoke no English and was simply there tagging along. He was noted as a trustworthy and reliable scout by Gibbons people and his problems throughout the rest of his life, were not of his making. All in al, Whittaker had a ruthless streak, adopted causes and had a political agenda. He was dangerous and showed this. Was his attack on Benteen and Reno Justified.......... it is still hotly argued. So there must be something to it. He tangled with ah so military more than the once. He was known and read by the military and thus Reno could not ignore him, but went about his challenge very cleverly. Reno was a clever guy and he had friends but friends who probably didn't really know him. He was certainly petty vindictive and a hot head. He was not a coward, too many brawls for that to be true and too much front. His assessment of time and motion was effectively the first and this approach has been played with ever since. His scenario timeline was really very good but undermined by RCoI. It stands the test of time today. His conclusions brought about the ongoing rows which will never cease because they go to the very heart of militaryness and chain of command. Oh, if Terry had decided to be ruthless.... but he had a campaign to recover and disaster to cope with besides managing any personal fall out. I don't know if you are aware of the letter eno sent to Sheridan behind Terry's back............. Not nice, all things considered, besides applying for Custer's Lt. Col. job. Sheridan accepted pretty much all Reno advised, so he was reasonably well thought of, up above. Still blew it in the end. Whittaker - archive.org/details/volunteercavalr00whitgoog
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 11, 2015 17:51:27 GMT -6
It was Sturgis call, he had Reno figured out! Very few of the 7th's officers liked him and some of them were on the track to a star. Sheridan trusted his subordinates. He even trusted Custer!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Mar 11, 2015 18:05:29 GMT -6
Holy Cow! I didn't realize they had Comic Sans in 1876! Very appropiate for that letter if you ask me.
Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 11, 2015 18:09:29 GMT -6
Your eyes are better than mine! I am waiting for the vote by the EM's.
Regards, Tom
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