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Post by dave on Mar 10, 2015 18:34:38 GMT -6
HR When and where was Benteen was told to pitch in? (I don't hold with the dicta that you can't end a sentence with a preposition) Are we looking at different notes from Cooke? The supposition that if "only 10 minutes more" is just that supposition. There is no proof and even more telling none of the ex military or combat vets on this board that I am aware of have supported that conjecture. I think you are making up the pitch in theory . Regards Dave
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 19:01:06 GMT -6
HR When and where was Benteen was told to pitch in? (I don't hold with the dicta that you can't end a sentence with a preposition) Are we looking at different notes from Cooke? The supposition that if "only 10 minutes more" is just that supposition. There is no proof and even more telling none of the ex military or combat vets on this board that I am aware of have supported that conjecture. I think you are making up the pitch in theory . Regards Dave The "pitch in" was part of the previous order given to Benteen with regards to his scout. If he encountered NAs he was to "pitch in". The 10 minutes is just that a supposition, a "what if" scenario. If Benteen had arrived 10 minutes earlier, he would most likely have crossed into the valley and joined the Reno fight. Or if Reno had held the skirmish line or timber a little longer same situation would have developed. GAC's intent being that he would have crossed at Ford B into the village, Reno in the valley fighting with support arriving from Benteen crossing at ford A. All a "what if" with Reno having retreated to the bluffs and inserting himself between GAC and Benteen.
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 10, 2015 19:02:37 GMT -6
The "pitch in" was in Custer's order to Benteen for the scout. He was to scout to the left and to pitch into anything he came across, and also inform Custer of same. That is what Benteen said his orders were when Custer sent him off to the left. there is nothing testified to that he was supposed to pitch in to hostiles in the LBH valley or on the eastern bluffs. All that stuff is being made up. HR and those thinking that way are writing orders for Benteen 139 years later that Custer never issued. When Benteen ended the scout, he rightly assumed he would be needed somewhere so he joins the main trail. When he gets to where the trail forked, he is able to determine, by viewing the valley fight and by the prompting of the Indian scouts, that going up the bluffs is the way to go. At the top, he meets the regimental XO who is his superior. He show the note which doesn't tell him where to come on to, only to be quick and bring the packs. That's all that note really says. All this stuff about it meant to come to Custer is pure speculation. Benteen had no idea where Custer was or his status. The ranking officer on the scene is the commander, and as such Benteen has to follow Reno's lead. Being a good soldier, he sees the need for helping the defeated battalion reorganize and setup a defense while the pack train is enroute. Any competent officer will do the same thing. And Reno may not have completely gotten his act together by that time, so Benteen very ably assists him. If I had been Terry, I would have probably put Benteen in for a medal for quite possibly saving what was left of the 7th.
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Post by dave on Mar 10, 2015 19:16:29 GMT -6
SF You answered your own question. The "pitch in" was on the scout not after. The 10 minutes theory is nothing but smoke with no structure. You and HR are making things up and that is not allowed in dealing with history. What ifs don't count. Regards dave
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2015 19:22:34 GMT -6
SF You answered your own question. The "pitch in" was on the scout not after. The 10 minutes theory is nothing but smoke with no structure. You and HR are making things up and that is not allowed in dealing with history. What ifs don't count. Regards dave Dave, I answered your question. I never stated that "pitch in" referred to the valley. I said it was in regards to the scout. Do not misrepresent my position. "What ifs" are discussions. Who is claiming it is a point of fact??
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Post by herosrest on Mar 10, 2015 20:07:39 GMT -6
Some rather odd stuff being offered on Benteen. He was in command of a component of a cavalry regiment, ordered into battle to attack a village in Little Bighorn valley. Even Alfred Terry knew the hostiles were likely to be on Little Bighorn river in the Little Bighorn river valley and yet, according to Benteen, he was on a valley hunt that could have taken him 25 miles and more before or if he found it. I guess the guy had a sense of humour.
He was ordered to attack, to get involved in the fighting quickly, as soon as possible and get the men with the pack train and the rear guard company forward as well. Benteen might not have seen or known of the threat ahead, but he was told of it. A big village. His orders sent him there. Quickly. He did not know what the split trails of Custer's and Reno's diverged routes meant but that is a complete smoke screen because he could see HIS regiment fighting in the valley. Where he was told to go and where he was to fight and precisely where he did go, until he decided to disobey his orders and join Reno on the bluffs. It's very difficult stuff to grasp and requires very high IQ, which is why only senior officers in the military understand this stuff. A few of them.
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 10, 2015 21:05:54 GMT -6
HR, what have you been smoking? Show me the order where Benteen was told to attack in the valley. How does the term "big village" mean attack? It's just information relaying the village has been found. "Come on" could be interpreted to mean abandon the scout and rejoin the regiment, but that is about all you could infer from those 2 words. "Be quick" means move with a purpose. "Bring packs" is just that, bring the pack train along. Benteen did all of those things. What order did he disobey? Where precisely was Benteen told to go? This is not difficult stuff to understand if you have been in the military and have issued and received orders, and you don't need a high IQ to understand the note to Benteen was totally crap as far as being a specific order. It violates all kinds of principles about issuing orders that subordinates can understand and follow with little doubt as to the issuer's intent.
You are correct about some rather odd stuff being offered on Benteen, but you are the one offering it. I have read some of the weird stuff you have posted on the other board and I really have to wonder what reality you exist in.
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Post by dave on Mar 10, 2015 21:15:57 GMT -6
SF You are right and I was wrong. You did not refer to phrase forBenteen to pitch in. I apologize for the error. Regards Dave
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 2:11:27 GMT -6
Colt45 - Benteen perfectly well understood that the village in the valley up ahead was being attacked by 7th avalry and that he was a part of that attack. Your lack of understanding of the orders or the note written by Cooke is unfortunate but you should stop apologising for Custer's mistakes. Benteen didn't do too ell and obviously also had a very poor grasp of what he was meant to do. Even Gibson understood that the regiment, his battalion and company, and himself, were hunting Sitting Bull's village in LBH valley and that it was being attacked. This was before Benteen marced to the left. Isn't your position on Benteen rather ridiculous? He knew where the valley was.
I would guess that your idea, opinion even, is that Benteen was meant to ride east of the river and go to Ford B. It's surprising how many people get that idea. Are you one of those?
Obviously, Custer did not order Reno to retreat from the valley. No one knew that would happen until it happened, and Benteen was to do what, in your opinion. Ride east of the river to Ford B while Reno waved 'hello' up to him on the bluffs whilst fighting the hostile hordes in the valley? Brilliant. But I don't think that Custer or Benteen were that brilliant, were they?
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 4:52:05 GMT -6
HR When and where was Benteen was told to pitch in? (I don't hold with the dicta that you can't end a sentence with a preposition) Are we looking at different notes from Cooke? The supposition that if "only 10 minutes more" is just that supposition. There is no proof and even more telling none of the ex military or combat vets on this board that I am aware of have supported that conjecture. I think you are making up the pitch in theory . Regards Dave Hi Dave. I've had to sit back and deeply consider your response, which I found amazing. Quite remarkable. You can end preposition with a sentence. I'm sure that's what you mean, when you meant it. Benteen is a sum of two parts with a lot of wiggle room built in, as his opinions and detail changed due to criticism of his part in the attack at LBH. Terry wasn't concerned that Benteen decided not to go to the Big ?Village and so he was off the hook for being responsible for the massacre, until Whittaker raised full insuit in accusation against Benteen. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings. The circumstances of the Reno Inquiry led Reno to discredit the time data which Whittaker offered in reasoned argument (in his book) as proof that Reno and Benteen deserted Custer. Benteen quite amazingly then offered his incompetance as his defence. He didn't know where the valley was and couldn't find it. When he did, the fighting was over and he didn't know what was going on, anyway. Someone told him that the hostiles had skeedadled, possibly an itinerant Italian musician who could not speak the language and did not know the time of day or of the place. You really must do better. D+ ex military or combat vets do not support conjecture. They do not know how. They simply do as they are told. Griffiths said spell it out loud!
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 11, 2015 5:00:21 GMT -6
Good Morning HR, I can see you are in fine form!
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 5:09:59 GMT -6
HR When and where was Benteen was told to pitch in? (I don't hold with the dicta that you can't end a sentence with a preposition) Are we looking at different notes from Cooke? The supposition that if "only 10 minutes more" is just that supposition. There is no proof and even more telling none of the ex military or combat vets on this board that I am aware of have supported that conjecture. I think you are making up the pitch in theory . Regards Dave Hi Dave. I've had to sit back and deeply consider your response, which I found amazing. Quite remarkable. You can end preposition with a sentence. I'm sure that's what you mean, when you meant it. Benteen is a sum of two parts with a lot of wiggle room built in, as his opinions and detail changed due to criticism of his part in the attack at LBH. Terry wasn't concerned that Benteen decided not to go to the Big ?Village and so he was off the hook for being responsible for the massacre, until Whittaker raised full insuit in accusation against Benteen. Based on Whittaker's research, Benteen dawdled from 2pm until 5pm while Custer's command grew wings. The circumstances of the Reno Inquiry led Reno to discredit the time data which Whittaker offered in reasoned argument (in his book) as proof that Reno and Benteen deserted Custer. Benteen quite amazingly then offered his incompetance as his defence. He didn't know where the valley was and couldn't find it. When he did, the fighting was over and he didn't know what was going on, anyway. Someone told him that the hostiles had skeedadled, possibly an itinerant Italian musician who could not speak the language and did not know the time of day or of the place. You really must do better. D+ ex military or combat vets do not support conjecture. They do not know how. They simply do as they are told. Griffiths said spell it out loud! I feel that, for General benefit, it may be worthwhile stating that I maintain an ongoing interest in the battle's central mystery of what color horse Trumpeter Martin rode whilst he was with Custer as his orderly trumpeter. Having reached Benteen with the note, Martin changed horses. Now, Benteen's companies were not running about with spare animals. They were with the pack train, and that is a further mystery since Martin's testimony under oath indicated that he spoke to McDougall after delivering the note to Benteen. That is record. There is no record of Martin being mounted upon a gray horse at any time.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 5:11:13 GMT -6
Good Morning HR, I can see you are in fine form! Regards, Tom I have little choice at the moment, my printer ran out of black ink. Life is like that!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 5:11:13 GMT -6
SF You are right and I was wrong. You did not refer to phrase forBenteen to pitch in. I apologize for the error. Regards Dave Thank you Dave.
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Post by herosrest on Mar 11, 2015 5:24:59 GMT -6
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