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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2014 13:55:59 GMT -6
Ian and Helford: All this is quite simple really. Free men either stand together or they die separately. We, your country and mine, along with the Commonwealth share a common bond, going back to ancient Greece and Rome, but first expressed in our more modern times at Runnymede with the Magna Carta, that free men can govern themselves. Those are the lessons of World War II, at least for me.
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Post by wild on Jan 20, 2014 14:09:17 GMT -6
I would not get too teary eyed about Britian and freedom.Empire builders care little for freedon. And this great love of freedom was not extended to the Indians.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 20, 2014 14:23:06 GMT -6
Yes Chuck, the courage shown by the free people of the world was magnificent, even small nations thousands of miles away had men volunteering to fight and die, many in the name of King George VI, true heroes in my book.
The only sad thing is that there was some who never would had shed a tear that Britain could be brought to her knees and thousands could be sent to concentration camps, the Jewish population would be the first to go, even though the Nazi’s never actually invaded they killed hundreds of innocent civilians through bombing raids, that alone should have convinced the free and brave to join the struggle, but alas some never heeded the call.
In the words of Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson (well Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce in the movie “Sherlock Holmes and the voice of terror”);
Watson: "It's a lovely morning, Holmes." Holmes: "There's an East wind coming, Watson." Watson: "I don't think so. Looks like another warm day." Holmes: "Good old Watson. You are the one fixed point in a changing age. But there's an East wind coming all the same, such a wind as never blew on England yet. It will be cold and bitter, Watson, and a good many of us may wither before its blast. But it's God's own wind none the less. And a greener, better, stronger land will be in the sunshine when the storm is cleared."
Marvellous
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2014 15:55:51 GMT -6
One of my favorite authors Alistair MacLean, himself a wartime member of the Royal Navy, wrote in your Sunday Express:
"The raiders with almost complete freedom of operation, sailed where they liked, struck where they chose, and sank with impunity.
This impunity could have been removed, risks halved and effective countermeasures doubled if we had had bases nearer the scene of action: the country at large, no less the Admiralty was convinced of this. The use of certain ports in Southern Ireland, would have moved our outposts far west into the Atlantic, and the advantages gained, the scores of ships and thousands of lives saved, could have made all the difference in life and death. But Southern Ireland wasn't interested in the life and death of its neighbor and categorically denied us the use of any port in Ireland. Far from offering us help in these our darkest days., they were prepared to stand aside while the German raiders cut our lifeline to the outer world and brought us to defeat"
The definition of neutrality Ian is to believe in nothing, to stand for nothing, to fight for nothing, to hold no principle dear, and hope to God above that others do your fighting and dying for you while as cowards they hide from reality. Therefore a national policy of neutrality is the cowards way of maintaining, or gaining, and the coin they are willing to expend is the blood of the sons and daughters of better nations and better people
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Post by wild on Jan 20, 2014 16:27:38 GMT -6
And that from a country whose congress passed a number of neutrality acts to prevent US involvement in future wars. In 1939 Roosevelt reaffirmed US neutrality. Only when The US was itself attacked did it enter the war, Standing for principles comes at a price and the US was not willing to pay it and allowed a tyrant every bit as bad as Hitler run riot in Eastern Europe.Particularly abandoning a first ally. Hypocrisy with the colonial powers returning to their former colonies to renew their pillaging.Freedom for whom?
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Post by quincannon on Jan 20, 2014 16:34:33 GMT -6
There are 416,800 American reasons why that statement is stupid, and would only be uttered by a sniveling cowardly bastard trying to defend the cowardly conduct and perfidy of his government.
How many of you cowardly Irish died to stop Hitler, and don't give me any of the Wild Geese bullshit, for they defied their government and stood with free men.
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Post by Margaret on Jan 20, 2014 16:50:31 GMT -6
....if I may interrupt a moment.... to continue where I left off...
Mr Quincannon,
...Regarding The Alamo...I hadn't realised how much it meant to Americans.... it was never on my list of 'must see's'... during my trips to the U.S.... ...I shall think on this one and decide whether to pursue further with research..... I might have always thought The Alamo was more relative to the State of Texas than the whole country....but it's difficult not to take notice... thank you...and I have made a note of the works you suggested, by Donovan and Hansen.... I intend to look into this....it may be of more interest than I imagined...
...regarding something you said earlier about...us Americans don't care where you are from, it's what you are that counts.... I have been observing that Hispanics don't seem to be too welcome in Arizona... perhaps this is peculiar to that State... and possibly with good reason... I wouldn't know... it doesn't sound very..worldly...and tends to be the opposite of what America is all about... wouldn't you say...?
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Post by Margaret on Jan 20, 2014 16:56:06 GMT -6
Ian..
thank you for your reply.... I wouldn't dispute anything you've said above, but I ought to make it clear that it wouldn't be solely WW1 or WW2 that I was referring to, and of course the Commonwealth shouldn't be forgotten, but the whole post-war period since, particularly the Russian stand-off over Cuba....the nuclear era....The U.S. came of age with all this, and we were among the beneficiaries..as I see it...
...the question I often ask myself and trying to get across here... is that I see the Civil War as pivotal.... the 20th Century history began when it ended in defeat for the Confederacy.... that is my view.... as I ponder what would have happened if the South had won and achieved permanent independent status... a complete separate country..... so there would be a North U.S. and a South U.S. continually growing and diverging further apart.... and I question whether either 'country' would have been internationally as effective in the 20th C... without unification..... where would we [that is what we call today the free world] have been then do you think....?
The Civil War and the later ethnic cleansing.. for that's what it was... of the Great Plains and California... meant the U.S. got rich...together as one nation...
....could the North on it's own even have defeated the Plains Indians post-1865... it's possible the South might have interfered, along with the British... I often think about this... which is why I feel the Civil War result, and the quite horrendous casualties that went with it... affects us all today.... I think so.... those who died in so many great battles are often in my thoughts.... which is surprising perhaps.... and if I was able... those historic areas preserved for us would be very much on my list of places to visit [in preference to The Alamo I think], in order to pay my respects... The American Civil War affects me very much, as much as WW1.... I feel our lives started there.... ...I would be interested to hear what anyone else thinks on these things...or not...as the case may be...
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Post by wild on Jan 20, 2014 16:59:41 GMT -6
deleted
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Post by Margaret on Jan 20, 2014 17:00:14 GMT -6
Mr Wild,
hello again... I shall not respond further to our earlier discussion and to your last post on the subject...I allow you the final word... I feel it has run it's course for us and I have enjoyed the sparring very much, and I hope it has not been too taxing for you...I see you have now moved on, but :-
I would not get too teary eyed about Britain and freedom.Empire builders care little for freedom. And this great love of freedom was not extended to the Indians.
on this later comment of yours, I would like to say that, I find this to be a little unfair on your part...
I have 2 examples.... the British prior to the War of Independence did try and make the country west of the Appalachians for Indians to go about their business unmolested.... the American settlers were not happy with this and as I understand it, was one of the precursors to war developing... and set apart from the taxation issue....
...so the Indian way of life was considered by the British...I hope you will regard this.. and I hope I'm not wrong.... I am happy to be corrected...
secondly...
The British/Canadians did give asylum to the Sioux and Nez Perce who made it there, for several years... and gave them some protection...much to the chagrin of the Americans in their pursuit... they may have tired of it and were glad to see them go back to the States... but even so...a place of refuge was provided...
..when some of these Indians later visited England on tour with Buffalo Bill... Queen Victoria is reputed to have told them...''if you were my people I would set you all free''... now, we might regard this as pretentious.... but I'm inclined to believe her....
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Post by justvisiting on Jan 20, 2014 17:01:25 GMT -6
There are 416,800 American reasons why that statement is stupid, and would only be uttered by a sniveling cowardly bastard trying to defend the cowardly conduct and perfidy of his government. How many of you cowardly Irish died to stop Hitler, and don't give me any of the Wild Geese bullshit, for they defied their government and stood with free men. Guys, the Independent Research thread is supposed to be research, not strident opinion. Why don't you guys migrate this thread over to another Topic where strident opinions are welcomed? Billy
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Post by Margaret on Jan 20, 2014 17:05:23 GMT -6
...I don't mind when threads go off on a tangent... but as I started this one... I would appreciate it if some order is maintained.....it is at risk of making me cross-eyed....
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Post by justvisiting on Jan 20, 2014 17:05:24 GMT -6
I've requested that Diane either move or delete this thread from the Independent Research category. If you don't like it, tough.
Billy
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Post by Margaret on Jan 20, 2014 17:08:01 GMT -6
...if you do that I shall not post here again.... I have much to discuss.... and it is a continuance of a thread I started... this, as far as I am concerned IS independent research.... personal disputes should be taken elsewhere...I agree...
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Post by wild on Jan 20, 2014 17:13:03 GMT -6
Hi Helford Yes most enjoyable and not too many feathers ruffled. Good point re Canada and Victoria/Shall try to be more balanced on this topic in future. Well done
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