|
Post by quincannon on Jan 18, 2014 14:11:16 GMT -6
Helford: I just remembered mention of her. Can't remember where or when but only that she played a very pivotal role in the Modoc War, and I think she was from Oregon.
You might want to dig a lot deeper into Sergeant Sacagawea, Regular United States Army as well. The recognized expert on her is Clay Jenkinson at the Dakota Institute. She hold that rank by Presidential appointment, and not by Jefferson.
|
|
|
Post by Margaret on Jan 18, 2014 14:51:33 GMT -6
..oh I've got something about Sacagawea.... from my Lewis and Clark book.... rather strange making her an honorary sergeant though... if I have to say, the term doesn't seem appropriate but it's not for me to say, really....
...I need to take a look at American women in the Civil War... those that joined up and fought... something for the future later this year, hopefully... can you recommend a book on this? thank you...
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 18, 2014 15:12:27 GMT -6
She was appointed a Sergeant by President Clinton, about the same time that he OKed the award of the Medal of Honor to Teddy Roosevelt. I think it was in the run up to the 200th Anniversary of the Lewis and Clark Expedition. She was also a big hero of the woman's suffrage movement. There are few people who have had more impact on the growth of our country. I watched Jenkinson give a two hour stand up in his Lewis persona, and at least half of that time was spent discussing her role, prompted by audience questions.
Jenkinson does Jefferson, Teddy Roosevelt, Lewis, Tesla, Oppenheimer, and maybe a couple of other characters and is excellent. He is here at least twice a year, and pairs up with a guy to teaches at the Air Force Academy, playing Hamiliton, and they pair off in Jefferson-Hamilton debates, that take current topics and debate them from the perspective of Hamilton and Jefferson, who were so far apart in their vision for the direction of our country in the early days.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 19, 2014 8:48:04 GMT -6
Helford Just to acknowledge your acceptance[ mark 2] to my apology-most gracious.
Mr Wild, if I might ask you, I do wonder if some of your apparent sympathies with Indian sensitivities are more for effect rather than deeply held...as if an opportunity exists for belligerence... you appear to be continually in a battle of sorts... You are hardly suggesting that the issue is but one for troublemakers? You also label others who interest themselves in the issue as feminists ,plus a more than cordial exchange with the abusive Mr quimcannon [hostile savage bosos] add to that your laissez faire approach to the issue leads me to suspect that far from being an independent honest broker you are a player with an agenda. If one takes the internet and the traffic passing through as the current status of the word then it is offensive.An ecco of unhappy times which will shortly be consigned to the garbage bin of history.Why delay it's departure? But not to avoid your question, Mr Dark Cloud will attest to my bona fide.As he was wont to say it's still up there
As to your question re the Irish at the LBH----From Dunkirk to Belgrade frought and died the chiefs of the Irish brigade.We even manned the battlements of quimcannon's beloved Alamo.Took a pair of colours from the Grenadiers guards at Fontenoy.If supported would have sent Churchill packing at Blenheim.Covered the retreat of the tragic Scots at Culoden.But we had our failures ;ran like hell at Stone Mountain allowing Stonewall's flank to be rolled up. The human condition which dictates that survival triumphs over morality.The Geman extermination of the Jews and others could not have been accomplished without the aid of thousands of from many nationalities. Survival is the name of the game.Ireland was not unlike a reservation;young men escaped and sought freedom and adventure in foreign armies.Thus many found themselves fight for their lives with Custer.
You touch on a very interesting point.What would have happened if Custer had broken into the village?"Gruelling work" you suggest. Well Helford here's a challenge for you.Describe the result of a Custer victory and call it by it's true name.
You have the advantage in matters of Indian culture so just homour me -------If the Indians were numerate why no Indian estimation of their own numbers? And to what reference point was their directional system fixed? Cheers
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 19, 2014 10:01:28 GMT -6
Helford I think it might be well to point out that Stone Mountain is in Georgia, outside of Atlanta, and LTG Thomas Jonathan Jackson, was never out of the States of Virginia and Maryland during the course of the Civil War.
As far as is known there were eight Alamo defenders born in Ireland of the 191 identified. The most notable was Robert Evans who before coming to Texas was from New York. There is no confirmend record of any of the Alamo defenders coming directly from Ireland. There are probably more defenders than have been identified, and if there are they are most likely natives of San Antonio de Bexar. We Americans are kind of funny about these things. It does not matter much where you come from., It is what you are that counts. The only thing that counts at the Alamo, is that they were all Texians.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 19, 2014 13:12:06 GMT -6
Correction; Cedar Mountain ,
|
|
|
Post by Margaret on Jan 19, 2014 16:12:42 GMT -6
Mr Quincannon,
...Regarding Sacajawea...thank you for that, interesting to know how she is still remembered.... although I might question the value of her role to the Corps of Discovery, as it was known...
...I have a book by James P. Ronda - Lewis and Clark among the Indians.... he gives a biography of her... and of course she figures throughout the book.... I quite enjoy the way he writes...
...I'm interested in the phonetics of her name....looking at Hidatsa language I wonder if it should really be spelt, and pronounced something like.... Tsekaka-wiac [or miac even]....[Bird Woman] ...wouldn't be quite so appealing...
..thank you for the information on The Alamo.... I shall bear that in mind should I ever watch a film of it...just to compare... John Wayne films usually have a few Irish in them....
..I thought the term was 'Texicans'....?
|
|
|
Post by Margaret on Jan 19, 2014 16:18:59 GMT -6
Hello Mr Wild,
Once again, your first paragraph continues to refer to personality clashes between yourself and others..... I am not interested...
...I don't do agenda's.... I am but a mere temporary visitor here.... a winter migrant....I have nothing to prove... and no points to score...and unlike you.. no axe to grind...
...as to the reference point their directional system was fixed... well.. which nation are you talking about here?
...Cheyenne....as an example for you...He'sen [East]..the direction of the rising sun. Onx'so'von [West] where the moon rises.... that alright...?
...of course they made estimations of their village numbers....they were asked enough times... sufficient to say ''too many''... ''never saw so many Indians together''....or similar... they didn't need to go around counting them in such numbers.... anything beyond a 1000 was not considered important to quantify.... I ask you... if you were in a gathering of say, 6000 people.... would you be able to put a figure on it if you didn't know...? I couldn't.... I might say a few thousand if questioned...30 years later I might say a whole lot more...
....regarding the Irish at the battle... you have avoided answering my question, instead putting forward an obvious agenda of your own.... I am not concerned with the Irish anywhere else... I asked you a direct question about the many Irishmen with the 7th.... from your silence on this... I conclude you would condone any and all actions they took... even if victorious...
...describing the result of a victory for the Cavalry leader is not a challenge for me Mr Wild... whilst I have some sympathy with women at Ft Lincoln... I quite like Mrs Custer, from what I know... she doesn't offend me... regardless of her choice of husband.... ..I sometimes imagine being the wife of one of the soldiers and how I would feel.... however, here now, to imagine myself an Indian woman in the village... I would see the Cavalry I think, in the same way a Darfuri would view the Sudanese 'Janjaweed'.... ....you shouldn't need any further explanation from me...
...we should not forget this though... they were all guilty... Sioux, Cheyenne, Crow, Pawnee of the most bloodthirsty acts of violence between themselves before anyone else came along.... I refer you to the Massacre Canyon, Nebraska atrocity as just one example.... this should not be overlooked... ultimately, I think it's proved the downfall for all of them... by not amalgamating and getting along... it opened the door to treachery...some of these bad feelings still persist today...
Mr Wild, you should know that, I doubt you would find many Europeans, including those who seek to mimic.... who hold the Lakota, and Nez Perce, amongst others.. with the respect that I do, which can also be critical - I think that's healthy...
...I have contributed financially to some of their projects....and individually as I saw fit....
...what have you done...?
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 19, 2014 16:52:58 GMT -6
Helford: A Texian is of Anglo origina. A Texican is a native of Texas of Hispanic origin. The latter term was used post revolution, from the Republic period as far as I know. Texian was the term used during the revolution for all, as the Province of Texas separated from Mexico, declared its independence, and became independent in fact after April 1836. Neither term is used today. Now all this is my understanding, related to me by folks deeply dipped in this sort of thing.
When you find a good Alamo movie let me know. The one in 2004 was the most accurate, but considering what came before that is not saying much.
I can tell you how Jenkinson pronounces her name, that being SA COG O WEA
She is in some ways more a symbol than anything else. Watch the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, listen to what the reporter says near the end of the movie, and apply that to the situation. There is more truth to that statement than poetry.
|
|
|
Post by Margaret on Jan 19, 2014 17:13:33 GMT -6
...oh I shall watch it... it has been showing here recently... so I expect it will be on again soon.. I quite like that film actually... and very interesting once again Mr Quincannon... thank you...
|
|
|
Post by Margaret on Jan 19, 2014 17:16:43 GMT -6
...I just want to say something else..... [you will be glad when I'm gone Mr Wild] ...but I'd like to make this point.... as a young Indian said to me a while ago... ... that he doesn't hold anyone today responsible but only those in the past.... I feel the same... and in particular , Grant, Sheridan, and Sherman...and I know these were great Civil War Generals who did what they had to do, to re-unify the country...
...but the Cavalry were pawns in the game... willing maybe... but strangely perhaps I don't hate them, that's too strong a term.... anyone prepared to put their lives on the line like that.... that is, because they were ordered to.... it's their 'job'.... as opposed to a wanton act like 'Sand Creek'.... I have to give them some respect....I might even have liked one or two.... but I do not side with their cause.......
... and I have to acknowledge and be thankful...really yes - be thankful, which I find a strange contradiction, but without a unified, soon to be rich and powerful, United States in the 20th Century, where would England be...?....and Ireland too for that matter.... I and my parents are of the 20th Century.... our freedom has largely depended on the unquestionable military power of the U.S.... they rescued my father....a p.o.w. in WW2 in Germany....incarcerated for 4 years....
Britain held out.... bravely holding the line until they came aboard....
....we don't see it, but I think we owe our lives to them, really....
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jan 19, 2014 18:01:34 GMT -6
Helford noting the depth you go into in your studies, and should you wish more on the Alamo, there are a number of books on the subject. Donovan's tells the complete story of the revolution with the Alamo as a centerpiece. Lord's, A Time To Stand is the most readable. The essential work for in depth study though is the Alamo Reader by Hansen, which contains every known original document regarding the battle. Have Hansen by your side whenever you delve into the subject.
The first six pages of Lord are the finest ever written on the battle, and tell why this relatively small incident has become so engrained in the American character.
You cannot be one of the millions of people who visit a broken down old church, and walk away without the Alamo becoming part of who you are.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 20, 2014 11:07:00 GMT -6
Helford You must try to comprehend the significance of your posts. Your exchange with quimcannon compromised your honest broker image.And your dismissal of my contributions as belligerent further undermines your neutral status. I think I'm justified in highlighting these charactistics of your stance on the above issue.
As regards the Irish troopers at the LBH; if the laws of crimes against humanity applied then they were criminals doing the bidding of criminals.
I would see the Cavalry I think, in the same way a Darfuri would view the Sudanese 'Janjaweed'... You won't get any applause for that little gem but we agree.
...we should not forget this though... they were all guilty... Sioux, Cheyenne, Crow, Pawnee of the most bloodthirsty acts of violence between themselves before anyone else came along.... And this was unique to Indian culture?
...I have contributed financially to some of their projects....and individually as I saw fit.... ...what have you done...? All praise but why cheapen it by using it as a debating tactic.
as to the reference point their directional system was fixed... No it was not.But this and numeracy are not substantive points and I have conceded on numeracy and have no problem in conceding an entry level directional system.
I agree with quimcannon on one point ; your responses are much more effective and thought provoking Best Wishes
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jan 20, 2014 11:16:32 GMT -6
ps ....we don't see it, but I think we owe our lives to them, really.... Huge issue and debatable. Cheers
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 20, 2014 13:36:04 GMT -6
[i]... and I have to acknowledge and be thankful...really yes - be thankful, which I find a strange contradiction, but without a unified, soon to be rich and powerful, United States in the 20th Century, where would England be...?[/i]
Hello Helford, I have always thought that Britain would never have won the war (well part of the team of victorious nations) without the U.S. but they also wouldn’t have lost it, they did need food and the U.S. could have still supplied that help and stayed neutral, but once Germany was committed in both Russia and Africa they had given up on taking Britain by force, they simply didn’t have the resources to advance into Russia, help out the Italians in Africa, occupy and station troops nine or ten European countries and on top of that invade Britain, so Britain would not of been conquered.
But… Britain cannot forget the way the U.S.A. helped them to defeat the axis, the different ways they helped us is far too numerous to list here, but the more important thing is the way that their personnel in the army, air force and navy paid the ultimate price for victory in Europe.
And one last point, Britain was also very lucky to have such a loyal commonwealth and Empire, for they too backed Britain as she stood alone.
Ian.
|
|