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Post by wild on Jan 15, 2014 17:29:27 GMT -6
A tactical withdrawal Margaret and well executated.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 17, 2014 7:42:52 GMT -6
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Post by wild on Jan 17, 2014 13:33:50 GMT -6
First let me say that I have never "disputed the fact that the term is offensive'' (as claimed by Muriel Charwood-Litzau in your mid December 1996 issue, citing a misleading Associated Press story). I have always tried to emphasize that squaw is now generally considered disparaging, as current dictionaries rightly indicate. Everyone would regard its use to refer to a Native American woman as demeaning (or colossally ignorant), though it should be noted that terms like squaw bread and squaw dance are still pretty widely used in Indian Country
The above is from AZ for which I am grateful. The manner in which Ian used the word was disparaging at least though maybe not intentionally.Maybe after reading the above he might desist.
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Post by Margaret on Jan 17, 2014 16:44:54 GMT -6
..the link posted by AZ Ranger merely confirms exactly what I said earlier Mr Wild... the Mohawk term that is degrading to women is not considered the same as the original meaning of squaw, meaning woman or female... perhaps you didn't read the whole article... or have cherry picked a paragraph that appealed to you....
..for most Indians the word squaw is a borrowed term, away from the Eastern and mid West areas... therefore it could be considered insulting to call, say, a Lakota woman a Squaw as it was never part of her language... ultimately it is up to Indians to decide for themselves whether they are offended by it or not.... it seems that some aren't.... similarly, the term Native American does not please all... many preferring Indian or just NDN....
...you only have to look at the origins of the tribal names Sioux and Iroquois to wonder at how they are still in use today...
...as I suggested earlier, I expect the usage of Squaw will diminish over the coming years gradually working it's way out of the system... others may reclaim it....we shall see... I'm not sure it's a matter for us non-Indians, really.... they need to lead the way on this,... but like most of us, I doubt they'll ever agree collectively.... history tends to support that conclusion....
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Post by fred on Jan 17, 2014 16:58:14 GMT -6
What is NDN?
So many people use the "term," but I have no clue what the letters stand for.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2014 17:21:44 GMT -6
NDN = Indian
Most out here are very specific, saying they belong to this or that Nation.
Many out here also refer to their wife or girlfriend as their squaw, depending upon who they are talking to, and it is generally said in jest.
There was absolutely no intent to demean when Ian used the term any more than Philbrick, or Stewart, or Donovan or any of the others had any intent to demean when they used in in their writings. This is all manufactured bullshit, intended only for the purpose of sticking a fork into Ian. Nothing else.
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Post by fred on Jan 17, 2014 18:39:09 GMT -6
Yes, this I know, but what do the individual letters stand for? Or is it just one of those "sound-acronyms"? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2014 18:40:47 GMT -6
As far as I know it is the latter. N =In D+ d N+ian
Just like pwned means You owned the bastard. You got him good. Like Helford owns wilde.
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Post by fred on Jan 17, 2014 19:56:44 GMT -6
That would be a very poor investment for Helford. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 17, 2014 20:01:39 GMT -6
Strictly K Mart. Hardly Neiman-Marcus. Perhaps it would be better to say like buying an Edsall. Their pretty all in pink, but the goddamned bumpers fall off. The toilet seat on the front grill is a nice touch though
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Post by quincannon on Jan 18, 2014 9:01:18 GMT -6
Ian: He is a petty little man, a child really. When you think about it, you and I saying this does not matter. What matters is he says it for himself nearly every time he posts. He has been the engine of his own undoing. I see no reason to change any of that. Let him destroy himself.
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Post by wild on Jan 18, 2014 9:31:15 GMT -6
Ian Your description of conditions in the camp prior to Custer's attack to wit Indians chasing squaws was disparaging.A cheap shot. You also lend tacit approval to the most vicious racist comments posted on this board by quimcannon.You look for support for your squaw comment from a man who has described the Indians as hostile savage bosos. I have posted nothing of a personal nature against you but you allow yourself to be used a conduit for a campaign of visceral hatered from quimcannon.He admits this; he said as much in his reply to Helford. I don't believe you want any part of this unpleasantness.quimcannon is incapable of debating.DC highlighted his problem;ego and vainity.Anything posted against his view is a declaration of war.Don't confuse honest debate with confrontation. Think on this Ian
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Post by Margaret on Jan 18, 2014 9:58:00 GMT -6
hello Mr Wild,
I am answering a post of yours from the Custer wounded thread, but I think it is more appropriate to reply on here.... I don't wish to pollute that one any further...
..yes you did make a public apology and I remain grateful to you for that... I shall speak no more of it... I only regard the term squaw as disparaging if Indian women find it to be so, individually.... as I have indicated it should not be regarded as such for most Indian women of the Eastern tribal areas, and probably none at all really... it's an error to believe so and driven I think by feminists and other activists of recent times... the term should be reclaimed and considered for what it was...
..you may know already that Indian women were at one time very powerful amongst the Eastern tribes...from the Iroquois Clan Mothers to the Narragansett of what is now Rhode Island who the English found to be headed by a 'sunk-squa' or woman chief.... one of their number they later executed... this was repeated elsewhere, such as the 'Massachusetts Queen'.. a squaw-sachem.... who headed the Confederated tribes.... one of King Philip's main allies in his war with the British was a Pocasett 'sunk-squa' and warrior leader...
...the Jesuits amongst the St Lawrence River Indians around 1630...seem to find offense with it...Father Le Jeune noting ''the women have great power''... and sought to introduce European principles of obedience...
..The British amongst the Cherokee sought to lessen the power of women in Cherokee affairs... one colonialist described it as 'petticoat government'.... so they took Cherokee men to England to learn European ways.... on returning they exerted great influence, taking slaves from blacks and other indians... and the women gradually adopting the ways of white Christian society....a class system developed...
..in my personal opinion, an Indian woman should celebrate being a squaw.. perhaps dropping the 'w' might help reconcile it with some...
Mr Wild, if I might ask you, I do wonder if some of your apparent sympathies with Indian sensitivities are more for effect rather than deeply held...as if an opportunity exists for belligerence... you appear to be continually in a battle of sorts...
...so I would like to know, if you care to comment and you really don't have to.... what your feelings are regarding the many Irishmen in the 7th Cavalry... perhaps as many as a 1/4 or 1/5th descended...what is your opinion of them and the work they were sent to do.... if they had won it would have to have been pretty gruelling 'work' wouldn't it...? I sometimes think it's better they lost, as this way they garner a degree of sympathy... it's not exactly Marye's Heights for you this, is it..?
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Post by quincannon on Jan 18, 2014 11:16:48 GMT -6
Helford I know nothing about the details, but was there not an Indian woman who was a pivotal figure in Captain Jack's War?
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Post by Margaret on Jan 18, 2014 13:34:37 GMT -6
Mr Quincannon...
..oh, that's an interesting question, and I'd be lying if I said I knew anything much about the Modoc's other than what is available online.... and I think we are talking here of Winema Riddle...interpreter and go-between who saved the lives of a number of Americans... some might view this as collaboration and treachery....and I wonder how she is viewed today amongst her people....
...whilst I can and do admire the die-hards, in what was a bitter war with appalling depredations.. one must also seek compromise... and I think that's what she was trying to do...at considerable risk.... she wouldn't deserve to be viewed negatively...and yet I feel reluctant to declare her in my conscience as an unsung heroine of history... and yet she did far more than I have ever done, or could do.... in any direction.... which is belittling...
...it merits further research, so thank you for alerting me to this...
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