..the 'Squaw' controversy...

[Margaret]

...I noticed on another thread a discussion about this term for an Indian female and thought to highlight it separately here as it's a subject that interests me very much...

...People get offended by all sorts of things which don't affect others even from the same race or sex....I might find a thread titled ''Double D wobble effect'' to be something only a man would ever write....but then I look at Mumsnet or 50 Shades...and think..hmmm...maybe not...

....Words change their meanings and squaw offends some people today so I see it gradually disappearing from the language over the coming years...but it's confounded by the fact that Indians of today, much like ourselves with English, are unaware of the original usage. ...Look how the word 'gay' has morphed into something different...perhaps in 50 years few will remember how it was formerly used...
..in the historic period, the French have something to answer for with their lazy interpretations of many Indian terms...continued via the British and Americans and carried forward through Indians themselves really....the Navajo apparently, still have a 'Squaw Dance'...

...Squaw in it's original form does not mean female genitalia but simply refers to a woman, or more usually, a young woman. It seems that from about the 1970's some political Indian activists and/or feminists have taken to misinterpreting the original meaning, perhaps not being aware of it in the first place, and replace it with something that they feel is more akin to derogatory 19th C. terms generally used against Indian women, along with the often seen ''old hags''... and ''drudges''... but as the delightfully informative Abenaki woman Marge Bruchac tells us, it refers to the totality of being female, not to a woman's private parts....

www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/squaw.html

The word endings sounding variously as ''esqua''...''squa'' ..'skwa'' ''skwe'' and others I would add like ''kwa'' ''kwe'' or simply 'kw' are found throughout eastern and mid West Native American languages that derive from the Algonquin...sometimes found in tribal names.

...there is another obscure tribe of Quebec origin called the Atikamekw, and I believe the 'kw' here again means 'female' as they are named after a species of Whitefish, but more correctly the spawning - female - Whitefish that they hunt in Autumn, or Fall...

...another, and I think, conclusive indication of how 'kwa' can only refer to being female is in the names given to the male bodied/female living [transgender in today's terms] people...by so many tribes of these regions.... some examples of this would be :-

ago-kwa [man-woman - Ojibwa]
mineto-kwe [man/woman - Potawotamie]
ikew-kwa [man-woman - Sauk]
aayah-kwe [both man and woman - Cree]

...bearing that in mind, it's difficult to see how 's-kwa' can refer to female genitals... although I expect some old fur trader on the prowl... and too drunk to care... might have on an odd occasion, got more than he bargained for...
..perish the thought...

[Yan Taylor]

Thanks Helford that’s a very informative post you’ve written there, very informative.

Ian.

[fred]

Jan 13, 2014 14:20:17 GMT -6 Margaret said:

...I noticed on another thread a discussion about this term for an Indian female and thought to highlight it separately here as it's a subject that interests me very much...

Helford,

What a great post!

And I never gave that "Double D..." thread much thought, never understanding its meaning until your post, when I took a moment-- based on your hint-- and realized what it meant.

Ha! I guess that is Old-School for you. Or maybe just naiveté.

Great job... and it is always good to see you lurking about. Hope you are doing well... and Happy New Year.

Very best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Let me add my thanks as well Helford. Had I thought Ian out of bounds when he first used it I would have done what friends do and told him so privately. I know him well enough to know he was using it in the manner of the times and completely dismissed it as being just that.

If this continues though we will have to rename one of our largest ski resort areas Squaw Valley. to something more befitting the politically correct as well as turd ball Irish trouble makers. I wonder if - - Gentle as the Softening Rain Female Native American Gulch - - would do?

Just the other day, on another site I frequent another piss ant troublemaker asked a question about the U S Coast Guard. His habit is to ask questions that can never be adequately answered by anyone, they being far to broad in scope. When folks attempt to address him, he then turns around and argues with them. Anyway my post to his said - That is a great question, and what I suggest you do the next time you visit the Nations Capitol take the time to visit the Coast Guard's Historian Office located on the campus of Saint Elizabeth's Mental Hospital on Martin Luther King Avenue. It is in a very historic old building, and while there please do take advantage of all the other services offered . To my shock and amazement he thanked me profusely and said he would. Now it does not take a genius to divine the double meaning directed at him. It just went right over his head, as I am sure your post will go over the head of your intended audience. He is just to damned dumb to understand. I must say though your methods are far more effective than just calling him a lyingsackofshit, as I am prone to do.

[Margaret]

..thank you all very much...and Happy New Year too... thanks Fred, nice to talk again.. I did always think you were 'old school' but then I'm not that far behind...

QC - discretion was always the better part of my valour....the rest I shall happily leave to you...
as for your ''piss ant troublemaker'' [this does make me chuckle].. it's safe to say that you 'pwned' him...
a new age term - probably won't last long...

Ian - Widnes - Eddie Waring - all I can associate I'm afraid...hope that will do

[quincannon]

You devil you. While our methods differ, I like yours better.

[Margaret]

..well..Ian... this might answer your question.... I expect you remember all those old 'B' westerns we used to get on the t.v. or at the 'pictures'.... usually during the opening or closing credits I used to see quite often 'Color by Technicolor'... which used to make me giggle as I thought someone couldn't spell correctly... not knowing of American English at that time...

...I hope this doesn't offend my 'Brother Jonathon's'... we struggle to compete these days....

....I used to think the BBC perfectly matched their commentators with the sports they were associated with... Waring/Rugby League...David Coleman/Athletics...Alan Weeks/Swimming-Ice Skating... Murray Walker/F1...and so on... nowadays I'm not so sure... I have to turn off their fawning athletics coverage...

...presumably these ring a bell for you... Featherstone Rovers...Rochdale Hornets...St Helens... to name a few.... not my cup of tea but it always seemed to be on, I had no choice..

....up and unnnnder ...

[wild]

up and unnnnder Margaret how are you?
First off let me thank you for your contribution to our little discussion.You seem to be most polite and as you have posted do not want to become involved in disputes.However you being English and me being Irish you thought you would make an exception.
I don't think we have crossed swords at any time Margaret and I'v never been offensive or abusive to you? But your ''piss ant troublemaker'' [this does make me chuckle].. does sorta kinda put you in the other camp.So your observations might just be a tiny bit biased.
Now here's the thing there were 3 terms we were discussing SAVAGE BOSO SQUAW.
You chose to comment on only one yet we know from your posts that you have trouble with "SAVAGE".Savage is the term Quimcannon uses for the Indians.And if you had done a modicum of research before wading in you would have found that Ian's use of Squaw was in the context of Custer would catch them off guard chasing squaws
Your post and I'm sure it was ment to be helpful is a classical example of cherry picking.
Your expertise is in "winkte" and genitalia?What a coincidence quimcannon's field of expertise is bollox.

Ian my advice to you is not to sign it for Widnes.

Ha ha ha.

[Margaret]

hello Mr Wild,

Noticing another post of yours I'm not sure I should give you the courtesy of a response but it would be rude of me not to...

...thank you for your reply earlier here and for reading what I had to say on the subject of 'Squaw'. My interest is in the linquistics, the phonetics and the historic usage of the term... There was no reason, then or now, to comment on any other.
However I might add that, rather obviously I would hope, I would have no time for racist, sexist language - I think when looking at history one should attempt to be unbiased and look at things from every angle without necessarily taking sides, however I will admit, where the main subject matter of this board is concerned, I tend to relate more to an Indian woman in the village, rather than any member of the 7th Cavalry... the lives of Indian women particularly interest me, in fact one of the great missed opportunities I think of all this, is that so few women were ever interviewed... most ethnographers, anthropologists, investigators were male, and they tended to interview only men.... who killed Custer... how many warriors.... it's always about the men... by men... for men.... obviously cultural modesty may have prevented many women from allowing an interview but they are usually only ever seen as fleeing non-combatants or hatchet wielders at battle's end.... I try to put myself in their position and reflect on how their everyday lives may have been...

Whether I am English or you are Irish is of no concern to me.... I consider myself more a woman of the world Mr Wild, and that is how I shall remain...

The ''piss ant troublemaker'' I assumed from Mr Quincannon's post to refer to someone else on another board... not to you.... if I was mistaken in this, as you seem to infer, then I obviously misread it.... but to quote the gentleman's post in question, he said:- ''just the other day, on another site I frequent, another p a troublemaker''....

...now I realise the inclusion of 'another' here might make oblique reference to you, however I was referring only to the mention of another site member - unknown to me...

...really Mr Wild, I understand you may feel somewhat persecuted at times, but this is a little challenging...

...I am not especially expert in very much...unfortunately.... however I have an interest as you may have alluded to, in gender diversity... I find that an intriguing subject to explore....
I have no special interest in female genitalia but having been married to my husband for 32 years, I suppose the male version must hold some fascination....

...I appreciate my 'Eddie Waring' up and unnnder quote was not lost on you... and do take care and may be talk again some time....

Margaret

[wild]

Thank you for your reply Margaret most civil.
I do see however that you approve the use of abusive terminology getting a chuckle from ''piss ant troublemaker'' It matters not at whom it was aimed and let me assure you that Mr quinncannon is in no way oblique in his references to me.
If you had followed the discussion there was no mistaking the tone of it and the manner in which quinncannon conducts himself.
You cannot be selective in commenting on a multi issue discussion.The result is a very onesided offering.Squaw was one word of a number of words which Ian and Quinncannon were using in what was at least disrespectful and at worst racist.
As you have trouble with the term "savage"and as it was also part of our discussion perhaps an opportunity to comment on that was missed.
Anyway my apologies for any rudeness;it is a rough parish and one should be careful with whom one sups.
Cheers

[Margaret]

Mr Wild, thank you for your reply. I would like to point out, although it should be clear, that this area of the board is for 'independent research'.... my research on 'Squaw' is independent and was not to be incorporated in any other discussion, or clashes between personalities on other threads...that is why I posted it here.... it was meant to be seen correctly as a separate topic, in case any one present or in the future might find it of some interest, or dispute it even. Nothing is above dispute. It wasn't and still is not, part of any discussion going on, on any other thread.

I am not forum police, I do not peruse every post looking for racist or sexist comments, and actually if I did see any I would find it beneath me to comment... there is no excuse for it in the present day, but when we study this history it's inevitable that we find such terms used freely by those in the past... we cannot rewrite history and I don't believe in trying to do so... a book I read quite often is Mrs Kelly's Captivity Amongst the Sioux Indians published 1871...I have an original copy - she suffered greatly but the word 'savage' appears on almost every page.... do I sympathise with her? I have to a little but she doesn't endear me to her... I don't like her... which is probably why I persist in reading....rather perversely...

I accept the apology you have made.

[wild]

Hi Margaret
If your post was ment to be independent of our discussion your lap of honour with the opposition would suggest otherwise.
No one is asking you to police the board but your response to quinncannons turd ball Irish trouble makers
was jovial and less than what would be expected from a person who thought racism had no place on the board.
Best wishes

[Margaret]

..dear Mr Waring... he was the sort of commentator I could listen to, without understanding anything he was going on about....

[Margaret]

Mr Wild,
...you are talking to me in riddles Sir,... I've really no idea what all that is about...

I find this forum fairly benign, unlike another I could mention where I could never be a member.... most residents here seem reasonable people. Some mudslinging, name calling, but one must expect that on the internet... it need not be taken to heart...

I shall press on.... I need to prepare another post for a different thread, one which has been idle for some time in the depths of this forum, but I feel there is a gap that needs closing, something needs to be addressed within it. I doubt it will be of interest to you, nor many others... possibly a member called 'fuchs', if he should still visit...

goodbye for now...

[wild]

There were actually groups of Eddie impersonators,not unlike Elvis impersonators and he hated them with a vengeance.