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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2012 17:36:24 GMT -6
An error in interpreting data has led to scientific study reinforcing errors relating Cheyenne history to terrain where it took place at LBH.
The best example of the problem is in Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle, where at page 188, a page header one has been assigned as a location where troopers fought dismounted. Unfortunately this is a glaring error of ridiculous proportions when the river near R is examined and the number '1' exists. There have been further glaring errors with data interpretation in this book.
I was asked about my quiet long autumn, it was spent researching publication of Freeman's Journal which Vestal thought a worthwhile endevour. I have my book, l believe.
Bad Medicine beyond Last Stand Hill: Cowboys & lndians at play.
An assessment of the forensic science.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2012 19:40:58 GMT -6
According to an excellent and pain staking research of evidence, Richard Fix has shown that Kulhman's SSL did not exist. That entire train of thinking was flawed.
He did not apply such disciplne to Freeman's sketch or Clark's map.
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Post by fred on Dec 28, 2012 20:23:21 GMT -6
He did not apply such disciplne to Freeman's sketch or Clark's map. Good Lord, spare me! Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by herosrest on Dec 28, 2012 21:12:46 GMT -6
I have written before about the location of the Cheyenne camp when Custer's command attacked, and the simple confusion and manipulation that this is open to.
The Cemetary episode.
From Fox, p181 'The vast majority of warriors rushed south, without Custer's Knowledge, to confront Reno's anticipated assault on the village.'
This is untrue, as told by Big Beaver, whose river crossing place and route is known from a sketch made in 1930. 'All the lndians from this end of the camp went north along the river, thence to the right or east and came up towards Custer from the north side'. Big Beaver shows the route followed and that is why there are no accounts of warriors on Cemetary Ridge or at Fords down river of it. No one was there.
This is confirmed by Runs the Enemy who told that the Cheyennes were fighting before he arrived from the valley, amd before he then rode around to the east and got through the line to capture horses. This is corroborated by Sitting Bull's 1883 account at Standing Rock.
Who were the Cheyennes fighting before Runs the Enemy arrived. White Bull stated that warriors stayed between the women and soldiers as he arrived and rode east.
For those able to rationalise the battle, Custer was at Calhoun Hill when Finley was over run as told to Walter Camp by Curley. At that time Custer's command were defending a line south to north from the river and under increasing pressure along its length. Once a cavalry presence could no longer control the terrain towards the river, they were exposed on flank and rear. White Bull rode around the left flank and met Crazy Horse. Game over.
Curley mentioned the movement circling Custer's left to threaten the right.
A guess now, that l pondered long time until l understood King's take on events. 'F' were at Blummer'S ridge. That 'is' just a guess until someone matches cartridges from there with finds from the LSH locale. Something that should have taken place decades ago.
It wasn't neccesary for Support to ride to Custer. All that was required was a defence of a route out towards Reno Hill. Can you imagine Benteen and Custer staring at each other through glasses.... You come here!
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Post by herosrest on Dec 29, 2012 19:48:27 GMT -6
All Michno based theory depends upon E.S. Godfreys' recollection of a trail he he did not comprehend in 1876, scouring the battlefield for survivors, that he remembered in 1886 after 'chatting' with Gall.
Where was Iron Cedar on the day of battle?
I have an unusal theory about LBH. Custer did not learn his lesson during August 1873.
He couldn't get avross. 214 Down ~ puzzle (7 letters)
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Post by shatonska on Dec 30, 2012 13:26:31 GMT -6
please go on
more explanations no puzzle
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Post by herosrest on Dec 30, 2012 14:17:37 GMT -6
If McLoughlin's account of the Custer fight is weighted, then simple straight forward data must stand extant. McLouglin met Gall daily, knew him and the language and stated that Gall first saw Custer's movements across from the village, from the village. That is completely different to the W.C. Bowen account of it from the 10th anniversary.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 30, 2012 14:18:33 GMT -6
Defining definition. A process of rule building which allows structured analysis to conclude.
Smith's troop is significant to the battle'w study and forms the underlying basis of fascination with Deep Ravine's burials. Theories abounded and continue but the most misleading of all theories by Kuhlman was painstakingly laid to rest by Richard Fox during an archaeologic tour de force.
Whether remains remain in Deep Ravine to be yet discovered is a mystery that attracts many and will eventually resolve when the means are available to facilitate the groundwork. In truth the odds in favour of positive result is only one in the two of yes or no. Despite the possibility of deep burials, there is no guarantee that even such was not exposed by heavy rain and cleared during early maintenance of graves and animal bones. An interesting footnote should relate detail of the burials related in 1877 in an article published by the Cherokre Advocate whick placed remains of 14 horses with 28 men, on the field.
Problems remain inherent to Company E's fight and maneuver about the battleground despite serious clues that are routinely overlooked.
Richard A. Fox, Jr. - 1997 - Only E company, of the five with Custer, rode gray horses. So the best way to inquire about E was with reference to the grays. "What happened to the gray horse ...". In fact all units of the 7th Cavalry rode gray horses with the possible exception of the pack train, which composition is unknown but included spare horses of officers and remounts.
It is impossible to guarantee, ler alone conclude that reference to mixed horse colors by warriors accounts, refers to Company E. That is a factual definiton.
There are solid clues from Curley at the time the command seperated in MTC and was sent along the river. See map by Lt. Maguire and sketch by Capt. Freeman.
Beyond this, Edward S. Godfrey reliably places the company on battle ridge between Calhoun's and Custer's hills. There are no logical or practical reasons to dispel Godfrey's source or the information.
Since only the company's commaner were found at Custer's hill, it is unlikely that the company ever occupied that terrain. There is no conclusive proof in tribal accounts which can and have been interpretted that way, but that is entirely unreliable because there were gray horses in every company.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 30, 2012 17:20:56 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Dec 30, 2012 19:42:37 GMT -6
Gall identified to E.S. Godfrey where toops fought in dismounted Skirmish ~ cdm15330.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15330coll22/id/69044Here is the terrain ~ 1.2.3.10/bmi/www.andrewrosenblatt.com/spgm144/gal/Little%20Big%20Horn/MG_8138_(08262010).jpgPost Kulhman and WWII an obsession with Custer's advance down river beyond Last Stand Hill, firmly embedded itself in the minds of students developing theses. Things got a li'l bit silly. If Joseph White Bull's record is studied properly, it is clear that his attack across Battle Ridge onto its west flank occured as and after troopers had been ordered by bugle, to close on their mounts and mount them. Black horses amongst the five companies may or may not have been rare. One was certainly ridden by Hughes of Company L. Hughes body was amongst those identified after the battle. Where did he lie? Which Hughes? Of interest in regards troopers disengaging skirmish to mount and maneuver is the chapter of G.B. Grinnell's 'The Fighting Cheyennes' which relates White Shield's fight on the Rosebud with Crook's commamd and gives detail of that warrior's kills. Joseph White Bull indicated on a sketch made by Stanley Vestal, where E Company moved to from Battle Ridge and Two Eagle's has complicated matters slightly. |
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Post by herosrest on Dec 31, 2012 7:14:54 GMT -6
The later waving.
LT DeRudio, led several troopers into the timber and spotted Custer, Cooke, & another man waving hats from Weir Peak. “It was on the highest point on the R bank, just below where Dr. DeWolf was killed… he was about 1000 yards from where I was.” Vanishing Victory, p. 56.
Is anyone known to have been in that locale waving something?
There are two relevant records from Camp and Bowen.
'When Reno's advance was checked and his left began to fall back, Chief Gall started with some of his warriors to cut off Reno's retreat to the bluffs. On his way he was excitedly hailed by "Iron Cedar," one of his warriors, who was on the high point, to hurry to him, that more soldiers were coming. This was the first intimation the Indians had of Custer's immediate column; up to the time of this incident they had supposed that all the troops were in Reno's attack. Custer had then crossed the valley of the dry creek, and was marching along and well up the slope of the bluff forming the second ridge back from the river, and nearly parallel to it. The command was marching rapidly in column of fours, and there was some confusion in the ranks, due probably to the unmanageableness of some excited horses.' -'Custer's Last Fight' by Lt. Col. Wm. H.C. Bowen, present at the 1886 anninversary.
Camp interview with Curley, July 19, 1910.
Bouyer and the Crows were ahead of Custer's command. Custer did not see Reno's fight. Mitch Bouyer and myself did. When Reno fighting no one but Mitch Bouyer with me. Before got to Crow Hill, Bouyer waved hat to Custer from here. Saw Reno fighting from Edgerly peaks.
Yes, saw retreat and Bouyer then gave signal to Custer. Custer and Tom Custer returned signal by waving hats, and men cheered. Bouyer probably told Custer Reno had been defeated, for Bouyer did a whole lot of talking to Custer when he joined him and kept talking while they were riding side by side.
There's seems to have been a whole lot of waving going on.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 31, 2012 20:23:07 GMT -6
Kuhlman did politics.
Rings around people.
LBH doesn't cahange people.
They change LBH. It's called history.
HOKA HEY!
The military were recently Siouxed for $25M because an officer disrespected Maj. RENO.
GarryOwen isn't worth a $188 million.
Any incapable 1st LT running offence againsy Custer, could not lose. TURN THE
FLANKS AND FIX.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 31, 2012 21:43:06 GMT -6
TO win,
Custer did not need to cross the river.
He was required to defend a crossing for the valley assault.
Barnard. Bull Run I. Waynesborough. Rivers.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 4, 2023 18:10:03 GMT -6
Custer was not waving from Weir Peaks/Point aka Edgerly Peaks - they need to read De Rudio RCOI again - he was back on the 'higher point' further up the river - Camp’s Weir Hill - near 1967's "3411"/1891's 3500 and Sharpshooter ridge. THE highest point at 3500'. A. I did not see any part of the column of General Custer. The only observation I made was while I was in the woods. General Custer, Lieut. Cook and another man I could not recognize came to the highest point of the bluff and waved their hats and made motions like they were cheering and pretty soon disappeared. I judge by that that probably his column was behind the bluff." Q. Where was that? It was on the highest point on the right bank of the creek just below where Dr. De Wolf was killed. Q. Did you see the place generally known as the point where Capt Weir went to? A. Yes Sir I saw it . Q. Was General Custer on that point . A . No, on one nearer the river and the highest point on that side. Where I saw General Custer the river comes right under the bluff comes in very narrow there hardly wide enough for a horse to stand on in my opinion... Q. How far was it from where you were to where you saw General Custer? A. I judge he was 1000 yards from where I was. It was ‘Just down from where DeWolf was killed’ & ‘500/600 yards from Reno Corral’ - i.e Benteen's G spot. Where the “river is right against the bluff”...where Martin and Kanipe say Custer first crossed 'the ridge' and saw (part of) the village. Custer was waving his hat and his men (below the hill) were cheering cause they ‘caught the village sleeping’. Like Martin said. All makes sense. Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 4, 2023 18:25:37 GMT -6
Q. About how far do you think it was from the point on the bluff occupied by Maj. Reno? A. I. think it could not have been more than 5 or 600 yards . It was a higher point but lower down on the river. Weir Hill / 3500'. Graham's Martin, 1922: "After we had gone about a mile or two we came to a big hill that overlooked the valley and we rode around the base of it and halted. Then the General took me with him and we rode to the top of the hill, where we could see the village in the valley on the other side of the river. It was a big village, but we couldn't see it all from there, though we didn't know it then; but several hundred tepees were in plain sight. There were no bucks to be seen; all we could see was some squaws and children playing and a few dogs and ponies. The General seemed both surprised and glad, and said the Indians must be in their tents, asleep. We did not see anything of Reno's column when we were up on the hill. I am sure the General did not see them at all, because he looked all around with his glasses, and all he said was that we had `got them this time.' He turned in the saddle and took off his hat and waved it so the men of the command, who were halted at the base of the hill, could see him and he shouted to them, "Hurrah, boys, we've got them! We'll finish them up and then go home to our station." Attachments:
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