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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 7, 2023 9:48:43 GMT -6
Camp re: Weir PEAKS... Camp Mss Field Notes Walter Mason Camp Unclassified Envelope 115 "Map Note the cedar trees in the coulee east of where Vincent Charley killed. This coulee runs exactly east and west and all way down to South coulee. Map Ing. of Crows. See if bend in river below Ford B. No. " See if two peaks and a narrow flat-top crescent shaped hill adjacent theretoon the east" will answer to description at Weir peaks.Yes. The crescent is 350 ft long around the crescent. Crescent is concave toward the west." Weir Peaks was cut for the road. If you are talking about 3411, there are lots of discussion on these boards. 3411 comes from the elevation noted on a topo map. That could be where they saw what they believed to be Custer. I call it fencepost. Here is a view from fencepost. You can not see north because Weir Peaks block the view.
Fence Post Panaramic sm.bmp (578.09 KB)
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 7, 2023 9:49:33 GMT -6
Camp re: Weir PEAKS... Camp Mss Field Notes Walter Mason Camp Unclassified Envelope 115 "Map Note the cedar trees in the coulee east of where Vincent Charley killed. This coulee runs exactly east and west and all way down to South coulee. Map Ing. of Crows. See if bend in river below Ford B. No. " See if two peaks and a narrow flat-top crescent shaped hill adjacent theretoon the east" will answer to description at Weir peaks.Yes. The crescent is 350 ft long around the crescent. Crescent is concave toward the west." Weir Peaks was cut for the road. If you are talking about 3411, there are lots of discussions on these boards. 3411 comes from the elevation noted on a topo map. That could be where they saw what they believed to be Custer. I call it fencepost. Below is a view from fencepost. You can not see north because Weir Peaks block the vie
Regards
AZ Ranger Fence Post Panaramic sm.bmp (578.09 KB)
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 7, 2023 10:18:29 GMT -6
Oh I’ve never been there either. Yay google earth! 😀 And Camp left some great clues! Thanks for the infomation AND the great photo! Most of this is based on Camp, and a bit of Kanipe and Martin and Benteen and De Rudio and Curley etc. to back it up. Ha and luckily I can read and do basic vector math, and google helps with distance calcs. Seems pretty clear Camp's Weir Hill is NOT Weir Peaks or Weir Point (or Edgelry Peaks or Reno Peaks . Per Camp it is 2500ft away from there, and only 1700ft from Reno's retreat up. SO YES - just west of Fred's 3411 & near 1891's USGS 3500 and Camp's Weir Hill all jive - both in location and descriptions - as I've mentioned and shown in several previous posts. 3500' is a HIGH(est) elevation measured there before they put in roads etc. The most...fun thing was realizing all that when Camp starts with "Custer was on Weir Hill..." when he's w/Martin! THEN it makes sense!! And much else falls into place. Camp's & Martin's and Herendeen's Weir HILL is pretty easy to locate based on Camp's bearings and distances. Knowing that actually made things a lot LESS confusing when reading 'testimony' when we get what/where he was talking about. Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 7, 2023 13:23:46 GMT -6
Weir Hill sight lines:
Camp
"Again take bearing from Weir hill to Edgerly peaks (N 43 W) and satisfy myself that Custer could not have seen further than the Blackfoot village but might have seen Ogalalla camp over toward hills. This is correct. He could see no further to right than a course N 71 W which is a full half mile to left of Ford B."
Thanks AZ - your pic shows why...very cool!
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Post by montrose on Jun 7, 2023 14:55:31 GMT -6
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Post by wild on Jun 7, 2023 15:13:25 GMT -6
Hi Fred Still alive? Best R
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 7, 2023 15:21:39 GMT -6
Thanks I checked thse out eary on - very cool! DataMeister's(?) was another good series. Having Google Earth open and following along was a blast. Cheers!
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Post by montrose on Jun 7, 2023 15:52:33 GMT -6
Fred Wagner crossed the great divide on 27 Nov 22 at age 82. I do not know where in the afterlife is the location of Benchmark 3411, but when it is my turn to cross over, I hope to meet him there.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 7, 2023 16:28:21 GMT -6
Maybe Benteen will show, at some point.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 7, 2023 17:28:28 GMT -6
Oh I’ve never been there either. Yay google earth! 😀 And Camp left some great clues! Thanks for the infomation AND the great photo! Most of this is based on Camp, and a bit of Kanipe and Martin and Benteen and De Rudio and Curley etc. to back it up. Ha and luckily I can read and do basic vector math, and google helps with distance calcs. Seems pretty clear Camp's Weir Hill is NOT Weir Peaks or Weir Point (or Edgelry Peaks or Reno Peaks . Per Camp it is 2500ft away from there, and only 1700ft from Reno's retreat up. SO YES - Fred's 3411 & near 1891's USGS 3500 and Camp's Weir Hill all jive - both in location and descriptions - as I've mentioned and shown in several previous posts. 3500 is a HIGH(est) elevation measured there before they put in roads etc. The most...fun thing was realizing all that when Camp starts with "Custer was on Weir Hill..." when he's w/Martin! THEN it makes sense!! And much else falls into place. Unless Camp was totally whacked out, and we know his map is off , his/Martin's Weir Hill is pretty easy to locate based on his bearings and distances. Knowing that actually made things a lot LESS confusing when reading 'testimony' when we get what/where he was talking about. Well........... what shall I say....... people may wish to believe AZR and they would be wrong. We (he and I, have a spat going on) and that is that. Now, one of the difficulties with Camp, is, I believe - that his ideas as gleaned from the notes are an evolution. This is sensible since he didn't just snap his fingers and have a vision. Let's face it - he was no Sitting Bull. Camp was involved in locating the Slim Buttes battle site and monument there. This was done by finding battle artifacts on the ground whilst visiting with participants. He therefore understood to look for evidence on the ground and visited the terrain with Godfrey. They were photographed collecting battle relics. It is reasonable to assume, nee believe, that Camp was aware of evidence od activity along the Luce NC Calhoun axis. This is confirmed by the reference point 'E' he used on the map which accompanied his questionnaire interviews. His 'E' was the NC ridge terrain. Whilst he had Godfrey's theory of movement through that area, there was nothing from Godfrey or anyone actually other than Joe Blummer, that any fighting or action took place on that terrain. So, he had a bit of a headache with this since Godfrey obviously also knew to look for relics on the ground. Anyway.... the Camp map in Hammer link indicates at 'D', a point Custer reached from which he could see the village before returning to his command. That point, in terms of the sketch, is further downriver than the 'G' spot (3411) Kanipe terrain. It is opposite Reno's dismount. Where Camp thought Reno dismounted is an aspect of Camp which has some interesting interpretations but his 'D' in the Hammer sketch, is where the river kicks away from the bluffs and runs south across the valley. It has been given that after..... hundreds?? of visits to the terrain, studied and most certainly competent students are still at a loss to pin down the minutae and detail of what happened. Why did Custer move east of the river rather than follow Reno? I'm off for a drink.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 7, 2023 18:14:12 GMT -6
At the heart of our disagreements, this is myself and AZR, is the belief that time on the ground is prerequisite to any and all worthwhile assessment of what went on.
A huge number of efforts are in print, and discussed across various media to feed continual interest in the battle's broad history and evolving social impact. What happened on the day, the nuts and bolts of the tactical fight are long understood and a social phenemenon of just causes and justice. Justice is what remains when hell freezes.
The best study was undertaken by Curtis in the nineteen naughties but is little read and tediously difficult to come by because of inclusion to Volume three of 'The North American Indian'. I will rectify this, here and copy it out for perusal and then show why Curtiss's concern for White Man Runs Him's ideas of Custer sitting watching Reno defeated before moving on downriver past Weir Peak, is a flight of fantasy beyond anything reasonable or worthwhile. The fight in the valley was a brief affair and WMRH misled Curtis and Curtis misled himself.
I may do the relevant bits of volume six as well, and also the participant accounts included in the books.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 7, 2023 18:24:14 GMT -6
There is a copy of Camp's questionnaire map in Fox's 1993 book.
The Camp sketch published by Hammer in '76', indicates at 'F' where the messenger on a roan sorrel, departed from.
Now then Martin - why were you not riding a grey horse...... ?
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 7, 2023 21:05:40 GMT -6
This is where I see D as being Weir Hill - notice how tight the river is to the bluff? Martin and Kanipe describe that too. Camp shows it roughly as the closest point there. The river makes a big sweep away from and around Reno Peaks....its actually furthest from the bluffs about opposite Weir point. Where did Reno dismount? Is there location info for that? Not sure how else to really figure that out though, as there are no other real indicators - other then his descriptions, so I like to think it works better that his D is benteen's G and his own Wier Hill! I would love to read a later interpretation of Camp's if he changed it since all Martin/Kanipe/Curley/Weir Hill re: Custer notes. Attachments:
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Post by herosrest on Jun 8, 2023 5:32:48 GMT -6
Camp never got to publish which has left his work scattered across several collections and reviewed over time by numerous researchers. Robert Doran spent a lot of time doing it with some interesting finds and conclusions. He was of course nuts about a horse, so the usual cautions apply. It's a very interesting work which he published.
Your furthest west location (fourth finger of diagram - right to left) is an interesting area in relation to Charlie Varnum. There has been a longstanding difference of opinion between Curtis and Godfrey, with the route taken over the bluffs. W.A. Graham reviewed it in one of his books.... and published a terrain map showing Godfrey's and Curtis's route, together with the location on the bluffs where Varnum saw the Gray Horse troop as he dismounted in the valley. It's in the area of the 4th finger and the comment by Curley to Camp, about Custer viewing the valley was that it was brief and as quick as a bird alighting or some such quibble. There may have been another observation by Custer, as the companies romped down the west face of the hill into Medicine Tail.
That has some bearing in relation to Peter Thompson, but of course, Trumperter Martin was with Custer and gave only the one trip to observe the valley.
It's a mushroom from here on in. I'll try and dig out the map with Varnum's sighting and the Godfrey Curtis routes.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 8, 2023 5:51:24 GMT -6
I've just bumped the 1879 Wilson map, which is a lovely bit of art - belongs on a wall somewhere.... link. Now.... Graham...... This is the reference link but the copy didn't copy the map. I have a copy of it somewhere on file and will endevour to find it. It was very odd with me researching the USAAF 36th Fighter Sqd, which operated out of Port Moresby in Early 1942, and bumping into the map in some god forsaken hole of the internet. I'm pretty sure I popped it up on one the boards and Wagner III went apoplectic over it. You know him, if the horseshoe fits, bend it. RiP. Lovely guy.
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