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Post by herosrest on Jun 4, 2023 18:38:57 GMT -6
For me this runs into timing issues ala John S. Gray who dismissed him and the Walter Camp stuff.
Custer waving at his men... Hurrah boys, we've got 'em napping! and later after Custer went north, Bouyer waving at Custer and going down for a chat. Hence the three Crows and Bouyer wiggle their way to Greasy Grass Hill. Seperate events in time
When I read Gray the first time, I was enjoying it until he put Curley onto a magic carpet and openly theorised where he was and went. This was a token acceptance of WMRH's criticism of Custer dallying rather than Benteen.
Once that sunk in, I tore Gray to pieces in serious study of his method. Wagner got the same and i'm working SoD over again at the moment.
It's horses for courses but they can go at 30mph and more when required. It is less than a mile from NC ridge to GGH. A long hat wave.
Benteen's G spot is where Kanipe rode back from. Walter Camp made that clear - Kanipe pointed it out to him when they were there.
Regards.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 4, 2023 19:22:34 GMT -6
Benteen and G - Custer sees the village. Figure he got this from Martini(?) who also says it’s ‘the highest point right where the river is at the foot of the bluff’. Camp and kanipe at the spot - Seems about right that G works. I thought Kanipe re: Camp said he was sent back 1/4mi-1/2 further along bluff than where they 1st hit the ridge- {Curley 500’ below Reno, kanipe a few hundred ft’ north of Reno}...sent back sooner is even better. Damn I hate when I cant relocate this stuff after I read it!! On Edit - aha! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 5, 2023 3:16:00 GMT -6
Does Gray get the locations right?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 5, 2023 6:45:40 GMT -6
Does Gray get the locations right? I believe he does, but which location do you question? Gray took horses' speeds and made his timeline using them. If an account fit, he put it in his book; if it didn't, it was not included. Not a good way to build a model. It better serves planning for travel rather than a specific event. In Fred Wagner's book, he used the accounts to form the timeline and horse rate of travel to check if it were possible. The timeline relates to a specific event. Some don't like the times being to the minute, but that is a personal preference. Where time is most important is when there are concurrent events. In Fred's book, several timelines run currently. My friend Gerry had a scroll and concurrent timelines for individuals and groups. It was in pencil, showing Gerry's willingness to change. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 5, 2023 7:52:34 GMT -6
Re: locations I was just thinking that if an author thought Custer was at Weir Point, when he was actually at Weir Hill, that the timeline would be a bit skewed. For example: No, he apparently didn't, as explained above. So any timeline (re:distance = +/- 2500' or 1/2 mile) would be off for this...time. Huh - on edit - Unless of course they just changed the speed needed to get there.I haven't read VV, so not sure if HE/Liddic said "Weir Point/Peak", or if HR did. Gray's timeline (and/or speeds), or anyone elses, would be subject to the same notions. Attachments:
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 5, 2023 18:05:53 GMT -6
Re: locations I was just thinking that if an author thought Custer was at Weir Point, when he was actually at Weir Hill, that the timeline would be a bit skewed. For example: No, he apparently didn't, as explained above. So any timeline (re:distance = +/- 2500' or 1/2 mile) would be off for this...time. Huh - on edit - Unless of course they just changed the speed needed to get there.I haven't read VV, so not sure if HE/Liddic said "Weir Point", or if HR did. Gray's timeline (and/or speeds), or anyone elses, would be subject to the same notions. Hi 41
What is the difference in location between Weir Hill and Weir Point? Or for that matter Weir Peaks.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Jun 5, 2023 18:25:22 GMT -6
Re: locations I was just thinking that if an author thought Custer was at Weir Point, when he was actually at Weir Hill, that the timeline would be a bit skewed. For example: No, he apparently didn't, as explained above. So any timeline (re:distance = +/- 2500' or 1/2 mile) would be off for this...time. Huh - on edit - Unless of course they just changed the speed needed to get there.I haven't read VV, so not sure if HE/Liddic said "Weir Point", or if HR did. Gray's timeline (and/or speeds), or anyone elses, would be subject to the same notions. Hi 41
What is the difference in location between Weir Hill and Weir Point? Or for that matter Weir Peaks.
Regards
AZ RangerHalf a mile.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 6, 2023 14:02:24 GMT -6
As HR says - 2500' Camp's Edgerly Peaks (later Reno Peaks on occasion - also refers to them as Weir Peaks (1911ish)), and his Weir Hill (where Custer & Martin were), are well described... "Bearings July 28. N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W. To Edgerly Peak N 58 W. To Weir's hill N 68 W. To DeWolf marker N 64 W." "Weir Hill From this hill, can only see the Hunkpapa & Black feet lodges” *“Weir Hill: it is 1700ft from Reno’s retreat up to Weir Hill” along with various bearings seems to put it near to the left of Sharpshooter’s Hill. Also happens to be a 3500' elev point there and just to the left of Sharpshooter's Hill on 1891 USGS. As per Martin & Kanipe - the 'Highest point just below the De Wolf marker.' *"From Weir's Hill to the 2 highest peaks the course is directly northwest" *"Highest Point - Edgerly Peaks - is almost direct NW from Benteen's horseshoe" *"Weirs Hill is 60 degrees west of North from same point" *"Distance Weir Hill to 1st Edgerly Peak is 2500ft" *"from Weir Hill can see the Custodians house but not the monument nor any part of Custer battlefield" contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/p15999coll31/id/50757/rec/11fedora.dlib.indiana.edu/fedora/get/iudl:2098846/OVERVIEW
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 6, 2023 14:14:08 GMT -6
In the blue print map above - Weir Hill (marked in red) does NOT jive with the bearings he gives. "Edgerly Hill" seems correct. As does the 'long high ridge running south below the peaks' that Custer moved to the left of, South Coulee, etc and the "HIGH" point down near sharpshooter's area seems about right for the 3500' mark. Interesting as he has Martin & Kanipe, and Edgerly D troop advance and the loop they took, 2 Sgt Butler marks, "interview with Edgerly", 28 bodies in DR, etc. Anyway... Camp Mss Field Notes John Martin Folder 3 "Custer first halted on Weir's hill and took a look at village (from this point he could see only about 1/3 of it - Hunk and Blackfoot villages - W.M. C.) Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek and turned to left and followed Dry Creek straight for village." "His description of route agrees with Curley and Knipe exactly." ... Camp re: Kanipe "Custers Route Knipe showed me where Custer struck across from Benteen Creek and came out at bluff. He struck edge of bluffs few hundred feet north of where Reno's afterward corraled and after going about 1/4 mile farther on was sent back." Attachments:
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Post by justinterested on Jun 6, 2023 14:53:53 GMT -6
The Camp Bluepinrt map has the Indian camps significantly downstream of where they are now agreed to have been during the battle, with an emphasis on "during the battle". You can see the discrepency between the blueprint map and the Little Bighorn National Monument map, the latter having them where they are generally agreed to have been during the battle. The Donahue "Drawing Battle Lines" book states that Camp later changed the tribal circle locations from what is on the blueprint map, presumably back upstream though it's not specifically stated.
From that discrepancy, it's hard to know what to make of the statement that only the Hunkpapa and Blackfeet circles were visible from Wier Hill. Is the error in that statement that they could only see the circles where he has depicted the Hunkpapa and Blackfeet circles (i.e. Cheyenne, Sans Arc, Oglala), or is it that they could only see back towards Reno's action?
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 6, 2023 14:59:10 GMT -6
Edgerly's take - and RENO Peaks (UGH!) "Soon after Benteen joined Reno on hill Capt Weir started to open up communication with Custer and the troop marched out along bluff until came to a jumping - off place from which could look down upon the hollow of Medicine Tail coulee. Men dismounted and put horses behind Edgerly peaks and behind hill to east and men formed line over this hill from east to west" ... "Here Edgerly had difficulty in mounting his horse. This was some distance south of Edgerly peaks (and probably about opposite the ravine on east side of bluffs in which the cedar trees are growing)." "Edgerly says that Weir afterward to him that he had not received permission to go and that he had "not even asked for it." " After going a few hundred yeads I swung off to the right with the troop and went into a little valley which must have been the one followed by Custer and his men, or nearly parallel to it..." And Reno peaks - because - why not!!! Attachments:
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 6, 2023 15:08:20 GMT -6
The Camp Bluepinrt map has the Indian camps significantly downstream of where they are now agreed to have been during the battle, with an emphasis on "during the battle". You can see the discrepency between the blueprint map and the Little Bighorn National Monument map, the latter having them where they are generally agreed to have been during the battle. The Donahue "Drawing Battle Lines" book states that Camp later changed the tribal circle locations from what is on the blueprint map, presumably back upstream though it's not specifically stated. From that discrepancy, it's hard to know what to make of the statement that only the Hunkpapa and Blackfeet circles were visible from Wier Hill. Is the error in that statement that they could only see the circles where he has depicted the Hunkpapa and Blackfeet circles (i.e. Cheyenne, Sans Arc, Oglala), or is it that they could only see back towards Reno's action? Great point!! Not sure - Camp was on location shooting bearings and measurement readings - if he "KNEW" where the camps really were or guessed??? Who knows! But agree - If he got their location wrong, then have no idea how he judged what Custer could see. He does describe re-checking that view from Weir Hill in one of his notes. His map certainly isnt the best - but hey - he surveyed it himself! He also describes 2 points that are 'directly NW' of each other and a 3rd that is NW of one of those, but 15deg off of the other, so... At least his Weir Hill (via bearings & distances) lines up perfectly with Kanipe, Martin, De Rudio, Benteen etc descriptions for where Custer 1st saw (some part of) the village. (and soon made a right down the (South) coulee)
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 6, 2023 15:42:12 GMT -6
BTW - martin in one his later interviews says ‘he saw the village, but didn’t know it was only a part of it’.
"It was a big village, but we couldn't see it all from there, though we didn't know it then; but several hundred tepees were in plain sight."
Not sure if Camp Put that notion in his head or not, butif he could only see several 100 tepees - he would eventually figure it out. IF he could see the northern camps , they would tend to be more quiet I would think.
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Post by johnson1941 on Jun 6, 2023 16:18:11 GMT -6
Camp re: Weir PEAKS... Camp Mss Field Notes Walter Mason Camp Unclassified Envelope 115 "Map Note the cedar trees in the coulee east of where Vincent Charley killed. This coulee runs exactly east and west and all way down to South coulee. Map Ing. of Crows. See if bend in river below Ford B. No. " See if two peaks and a narrow flat-top crescent shaped hill adjacent theretoon the east" will answer to description at Weir peaks.Yes. The crescent is 350 ft long around the crescent. Crescent is concave toward the west." Attachments:
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 7, 2023 9:22:06 GMT -6
As HR says - 2500' Camp's Edgerly Peaks (later Reno Peaks on occasion - also refers to them as Weir Peaks (1911ish)), and his Weir Hill (where Custer & Martin were).. "Bearings July 28. N End of Benteen's line to sharpshooters hill N 45 W. To Edgerly Peak N 58 W. To Weir's hill N 68 W. To DeWolf marker N 64 W." "Weir Hill From this hill, can only see the Hunkpapa & Black feet lodges” *“Weir Hill: it is 1700ft from Reno’s retreat up to Weir Hill” along with various bearings seems to put it near to the left of Sharpshooter’s Hill. Also happens to be a 3500' elev point there and just to the left of Sharpshooter's Hill on 1891 USGS. As per Martin & Kanipe - the 'Highest point just below the De Wolf marker.' *"From Weir's Hill to the 2 highest peaks the course is directly northwest" *"Highest Point - Edgerly Peaks - is almost direct NW from Benteen's horseshoe" *"Weirs Hill is 60 degrees west of North from same point" *"Distance Weir Hill to 1st Edgerly Peak is 2500ft" *"from Weir Hill can see the Custodians house but not the monument nor any part of Custer battlefield" contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/p15999coll31/id/50757/rec/11fedora.dlib.indiana.edu/fedora/get/iudl:2098846/OVERVIEWI should have known HR is involved. He has never been there. On Camp's map, Weir Hill is what we call the loaf. These high points are or were all attached. The camp draws Cedar Coulee as being straight. It is not. It curves to the east. To go down straight, you cross at the loaf and move down Middle Coulee, which is on another scout's map. From Weir Peak, you can see the battlefield. There is a picture of Fred Wagner waving a guidon. It was observed from Last Stand Hill. One can run amuck if one relies on the various names instead of the current ones. MTC was called Reno Creek, for instance. The names vary, but the physical locations remain constant. It seems to me that the most confused people have never been there. I have only spent several hundred days there and am still learning things. For sources on this board, I trust Bill and Justin. We may differ in opinions but we have a sense of the locations. I rode with the Real Birds on several occasions and they didn't know all the names. They did know where to cross MTC and ride up to Nye Cartwright since it is an obvious route from the back of a horse. Regards
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