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Post by brenda56 on Feb 12, 2012 6:08:26 GMT -6
Thinking about it I now accept Fred's reason for the Custer two company move to the north. I thought the reason at the extreme of the envelope however I remember a candid conversation I had with an uncle a few years back. He had gone commie bashing in the Far East. And yes, I can see the point.
The forty minutes is interesting and significant. I can now look again at the implication of that.
As for leadership, well I may not be correct in some minds but I do draw a distinction of leadership relative to the situation. In a high activity, multiple simultaneous events, rapid prioritising, noise, panic and so on in a razor sharp high crisis situation the man who steps forward may indeed be the last man you expect. Many a stressed leader has been stretchered off the battlefield to be replaced by the Sergeant or corporal and so on.
Benteen, I agree with the reference to his ability. My wid goose chase was said with hindsight and a touch of lightness.
And I'm onan IPad at the moment and I need more practice.
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Post by fred on Feb 12, 2012 7:35:44 GMT -6
Nicely done, Crab... nicely done.
A couple of points need to be made here.
Regarding Fox, Crab, and his "objectives" for Custer. It wasn't a matter of corralling the Indians, per se, it was the idea that if the so-called fugitives were threatened, it would cause the warriors to break up and attempt to help their families. That would, therefore, break their resistance. This is a legitimate plan, a legitimate reason or objective, even if it seems a little far-fetched. The only change I would make to that is the degree of aggression employed.
Now... another thing of import... and Brenda, personally I think your pick-up on this is very, very prescient. Based on my timing work, Boston Custer had to have seen the very beginning of the Reno retreat. He had to have communicated this to his brother. At the same time, he told George about Benteen being on the main trail. It would be easy for George to calculate an approximate time for Benteen's arrival and fit that into the "timing-scheme" he was developing in his mind for what he had to do next.
Regardless of Custer's feelings for Reno he knew the major was doing his job... also regardless of what was happening to him: Reno was occupying the Indians and the more the merrier. If Custer was in a rush, salvaging Reno was only his secondary objective.
The fly in the ointment, however, was probably the ferocity of the defense against Reno and the turning of that into offense. It would be natural for a command that has to retreat to either secure a defensive position, i. e., the timber, or to retreat back up the valley, the same way that command had come... it was known territory.
In 1930, Sunshine Magazine, published in Sioux Falls, SD, put out several articles about the Little Big Horn under the common title, “Bullets, Boots, and Saddles.” John P. Everett of Sturgis, SD, interviewed several of the survivors, one of whom was Daniel Newell of M Company. Newell said, “Our first idea on retreating to the river was to get back to the place where we had forded, but the Indians hidden in the timber and whom we had passed in our charge down the valley were busy by now and had cut us off there. So there was nothing to do but cut through the line between us and the river.”
There is no reason to believe Custer wouldn't be thinking the same thing...
... and as you pointed out, Brenda, Reno's plight brought him to the hilltop, interjecting his broken command between Benteen and George Custer. Despite what the nay-sayers and detractors will scream, this fortuitously saved the Seventh Cavalry. And with that force of Indians downstream, Benteen's paltry little command could have achieved nothing.
Another thing to consider... until it was entirely too late, I believe Custer was rather smug about his burgeoning plans. He knew Indians were crossing at Ford B and coming up the Deep Ravine area. Benteen's arrival would-- theoretically!!-- trap those warriors between Benteen and Keogh. That would immediately cause panic and dispersal.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by brenda56 on Feb 12, 2012 8:44:27 GMT -6
Yes, the smug look sums up quite a lot. I agree with that.
Backtracking on some of my thoughts one of the advantages of having family and friends along is that they are more than likely to speak up. Boston, I have no doubt, spoke to GAC or his brother or someone else.
Whilst it is clear that Boston did convey his observations maybe it would be no bad thing to support it further.
Custer had two hundred men with him, all had ears, heightened senses and a number of Civil War years experience in their pockets. Now I have never been to the battlefield so am a bit reluctant at times to post.
Nevertheless there's something about battlefield sound. To me volley fire is volley fire, sporadic fire is sporadic fire and silence is silence. To a Civil War veteran those sounds probably tell a different story. Custer left the Reno viewpoint to the sound of volley fire. A bit later, yep that's still volley. At some time the noise changes. There are over four hundred ears on parade. And later that maybe changes to relative silence.
So to a tuned in ear something has changed. Arrives Boston. He may have had no time to convey his observations. Maybe he was asked before he could open his mouth.
A bit like a good mechanic and engine sound I suppose.
Mind you it's about timeline here. It may fit in and if it does the loop of doubt is closed, I think !
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Post by quincannon on Feb 12, 2012 9:09:25 GMT -6
Brenda: My point is that leadership is a learned skill. You must start with something and good character is a must, but even that is learned somewhere. I have seen all to many "leaders" tall, blond, tailored and shinned, that could not lead you into a bar room if they were buying. On the other hand I have seen others who were not prototypes exercise a very quite but determined form of leadership that would make you follow them anywhere and under any circumstance. Leadership is a combination of determination, competence and caring, and if any of these elements are flawed or missing, the person is no leader. Rank does not matter. I have seen some very junior men exercise exceptional leadership without the badge or authority of rank. I have seen general officers on the other hand act like bumbling fools when leadership was most needed at the time. Decent raw material, men and women of character are necessary, but it is the training that turns raw steel into a Toledo blade. If the lessons of that training are not absorbed, or if they somehow turn to the what's in it for me careeerism track, that same raw steel is only good for a butter knife.
I would add that in my opinion, and it is only that, Custer, based upon the totality of his career, reminds me of the Second Lieutenant that never matured as an officer. This is not uncommon. Also building on the Oracle of Nevada said, I see signs of him somewhere along the line becoming part of the what's in it for me crowd, or perhaps the is this all there is crowd.
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Post by lew on Feb 12, 2012 11:12:12 GMT -6
I've got a question. Has anyone ever done an experiment,where they follow Custer's route to LSH--and listen for gunfire from Reno's position in the valley? Would you be able to determine how far along Custer's route he was able to hear Reno in action? Could you tell if the gunfire slackened off? Could you tell if the gunfire was moving away?
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Post by El Crab on Feb 12, 2012 15:07:23 GMT -6
Nicely done, Crab... nicely done. A couple of points need to be made here. Regarding Fox, Crab, and his "objectives" for Custer. It wasn't a matter of corralling the Indians, per se, it was the idea that if the so-called fugitives were threatened, it would cause the warriors to break up and attempt to help their families. That would, therefore, break their resistance. This is a legitimate plan, a legitimate reason or objective, even if it seems a little far-fetched. The only change I would make to that is the degree of aggression employed. That makes a little more sense. Having not read Fox's book in a while, I appreciate the correction. The dumbed down point everyone draws from his book is that Custer went north with two companies to capture hostages, realized it could not be done and came back to Cemetery Ridge. I was a victim of this dumbing-down, or at least my memory was. Don't steal my one and only original theory! My OAOOT has making an appearance at Ford B to reveal the threat of his 200 soldiers, then Custer moving north to allow the Indians to get between him and Benteen. And when Benteen's battalion shows up on the scene, he's in the rear of the Indians' front, squeezing them between Custer's forces and Benteen's. It wouldn't be this devilish masterstroke that would've made Napoleon envious, but it would be problematic for a force of warriors who generally fight without being told what to do. The second part to this is the psychological effect. Reno shows up at the south end, surprise! Then Custer appears. So they go to deal with him. Then Benteen shows up, and I think the Indians would start to wonder if even more soldiers are on the way, and where would they be coming from? The soldiers with the pack train would add to this if spotted. Basically, Custer was pinning down the Indians by presenting threats from different directions, and with each arrival of troops brings with it uncertainty and confusion. Custer's move to Ford D would slow or stop any exodus, or force them to consider heading back toward the village, which they originally fled because bluecoats came from the south to attack. If this was Custer's intentions, to create confusion, he laid a pretty good foundation for this to work. For a fighting force that was made up of individuals free to do as they please (and have nearby families to think about), it would present them with choices to be made. Which group of soldiers do I fight? And where is the NEXT group coming from? At this point I think it's important to mention again that Custer did not know where the village was when he sent Benteen to the left. And he probably still didn't know exactly where it was when he sent Reno on his mission, but he knew it wasn't on the east side. By the time he sent Martini, I think he knew Benteen had to be on the back trail (in other words, he knew Benteen found nothing) and Custer also finally had the village in his sights. And Custer realized he had somehow gotten within gunshot range of this massive village in broad daylight, and that he had the advantage. I think Custer slowed down, no longer felt the urgency that caused him to rush his command to the Little Big Horn valley. The village was still standing, his command was able to reach it before it could break apart and flee. If he lacked confidence at any point before the 25th, I'm fairly certain he was confident as ever as his immediate command headed into the battle. But with Benteen linking up with Reno, the offensive was abandoned for 2/3 of the command. Custer was still thinking offensively, but those with Reno and Benteen weren't. And because Custer didn't specify where Benteen was to go (Benteen just followed the trail, as Custer expected him to), running into Reno killed the momentum Custer had.
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Post by fred on Feb 12, 2012 18:40:23 GMT -6
Don't steal my one and only original theory! That's what happens. Sometimes you think you are the only one... then.... I think it was incidental, however. I am quite sure GAC didn't plan it that way, though I am equally sure he saw the poetic justice in such an event as he rode off Calhoun Hill. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 12, 2012 18:46:38 GMT -6
Has anyone ever done an experiment,where they follow Custer's route to LSH--and listen for gunfire from Reno's position in the valley? Would you be able to determine how far along Custer's route he was able to hear Reno in action? Could you tell if the gunfire slackened off? Could you tell if the gunfire was moving away? Larry, my boy! Welcome! How are you feeling? Hope you are doing well. Someone-- memory fails me-- did a test from Reno Hill, positioning someone on LSH, and I believe they could hear the gunshots. Problem was, there was so much of it and from different areas, and at times the volleys over-shadowed the other firing. I would suspect there were more volleys than just the two heard from Nye-Cartwright or Luce Ridge. Another thing to consider... and I am no expert on this, not by a long-shot-- I would suspect all the rising dust and the Indian howling muffled a good deal of the gunfire. There were reports from participants about gunfire slackening, and there were also reports of "scattering" fire. I suspect that is indicidual firing as opposed to volleys. Stay well, my boy. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 12, 2012 19:01:20 GMT -6
Brenda,
If I understand you correctly, I think you are focusing too much on Reno.
No matter how I worked it, Boston had to have seen the beginning of Reno's retreat. He had to communicate that to his brother. If George asked him about Benteen, Boston must have said, "Oh, and by the way, Reno...." But it did not matter to Custer. This was the final battle; this was Armageddon, and George Custer was going to make sure of it. That-- to me-- is what all the moping up the Rosebud was about, and Reno's plight was not going to slow down George or stop him. Reno was incidental and his losses were simply casualties of war.
Custer's move north from Luce/Nye-Cartwright/Ford B was done because Custer continued to believe Reno had attracted all or most of the opposing forces, regardless how well or how poorly he was doing. I believe if George thought Benteen would be stopped by Reno's routed command, he would have acted differently... he probably would have pulled back. A guess... but I think a reasonable one. And it wouldn't have been because he felt sorry for Reno or his men; it would have been because he understood he couldn't go it alone.
Of course, that scenario assumes a lot... and I am not convinced of it myself.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by lew on Feb 12, 2012 19:41:42 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks for asking about me,and for the reply to my question. I would just be curious as to what Custer could have heard,before he became fully engaged with the Indians. I remember those experiments about what Reno might have heard-but what about Custer? Could he have heard Reno's gunfire? I'm doing fine .Thanks, Larry
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Post by bc on Feb 13, 2012 2:20:29 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks for asking about me,and for the reply to my question. I would just be curious as to what Custer could have heard,before he became fully engaged with the Indians. I remember those experiments about what Reno might have heard-but what about Custer? Could he have heard Reno's gunfire? I'm doing fine .Thanks, Larry Larry, I'm not sure what was done for studies particularly from south to north. And the one or two done may have been with just a few guns and not one or two hundred or more. However, Peter Thompson, Herendeen, Girard, DeRudio, and others with most of them, except Thompson, being in Reno's timber fight timber heard the Custer firing till the end. Reno Hill is about the same distance south from Custer as the timber fight area. Even McDougall was hearing Custer's firing from the pack train well before it arrived on Reno Hill. With all that said, it has always been my belief that Custer and everyone else heard the firing shift from the valley to Reno Hill. We have a number of officers and enlisted men with civil war experience who had experience hearing the sounds of battle including both big and small engagements. I would expect Custer to think that not only Benteen but Reno would be joining up with him so he left Keogh on Luce who eventually got pushed to Calhoun. Even a retreating Reno command with casualties shouldn't be expected to just quit for a couple hours. bc
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 13, 2012 6:25:36 GMT -6
I remember writing a post a while back now; about Benteen meeting Reno whilst he was on his way to join up with Custer, Britt has just jolted my memory when he said that Custer would expect not only Benteen but also Reno to get involved in the battle again. I don’t know if Benteen bumping into Reno was the stroke of luck that may have saved his command or it was a stroke of bad luck for Custer, in that it denied him the three Company’s (plus Reno’s troops if Custer had no idea of their fate in the valley) he needed to take on the next phase of his plan, I wonder what decision he would have made knowing that no re-enforcement was forthcoming and he would be on his own.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Feb 13, 2012 6:29:04 GMT -6
From everything I have done, Gerard's recollections of what he heard while in the timber-- and for how long-- are probably the best and most accurate of all. And Custer may have heard, but again, it was all incidental... what would he have cared?
As for Keogh being "pushed" off Luce Ridge, I don't know where you got that from, Britt, but there weren't enough Indians anywhere around to push Keogh anywhere. At least according to Yellow Nose, Russell White Bear, Shave Elk, American Horse, Brave Wolf, Pretty White Buffalo, Feather Earring, Flying Hawk, Two Eagles, Lights, Standing Bear, Foolish Elk, Crow King, John Two Moons, White Bull, Wooden Leg, Hollow Horn Bear, Two Moons, Thunder Bear, Turtle Rib, Red Feather, Iron Hawk, and a few others. Of course, some of what they say is certainly hearsay, but still....
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 13, 2012 8:35:20 GMT -6
Excellent work Fred, you are definitely the go to man on this board, not only that you answer all questions with grace; you are on the money too.
Ian.
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Post by bc on Feb 13, 2012 10:54:42 GMT -6
From everything I have done, Gerard's recollections of what he heard while in the timber-- and for how long-- are probably the best and most accurate of all. And Custer may have heard, but again, it was all incidental... what would he have cared? As for Keogh being "pushed" off Luce Ridge, I don't know where you got that from, Britt, but there weren't enough Indians anywhere around to push Keogh anywhere. At least according to Yellow Nose, Russell White Bear, Shave Elk, American Horse, Brave Wolf, Pretty White Buffalo, Feather Earring, Flying Hawk, Two Eagles, Lights, Standing Bear, Foolish Elk, Crow King, John Two Moons, White Bull, Wooden Leg, Hollow Horn Bear, Two Moons, Thunder Bear, Turtle Rib, Red Feather, Iron Hawk, and a few others. Of course, some of what they say is certainly hearsay, but still.... Best wishes, Fred. I used pushed after previously using driven. Not a fighting push, per se, as in bullets impacting around Keogh. But I do think that they wanted to hold that position and the link to the forces to the south who could provide effective fire over any NAs caught in MTC. I think the NAs pouring across the river around ford B going up Deep Ravine and up GGR caused Keogh to involuntarily have to move to Calhoun to protect the rear of Custer and Yates. This all happened fairly fast. bc
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