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Post by fred on Dec 27, 2011 11:52:20 GMT -6
Strictly speaking, last I knew footnotes appear at the bottom of the page, endnotes at the end of chapter or book. Footnotes are ideal but they leave the impression of a school textbook, which can be fine or not. For ME, that's ideal, though others do not prefer it. Next preferred are chapter endnotes. Not having read the book, Fred, I can't comment on applicability, of course, but what has appeared in Custerland and in Donovan and others' works is the puzzling, unsourced quote or statement of fact (or sourced from a newspaper story forty years after) surrounded by absolute trivia notated beyond belief, all requiring reference to the book's end pages. That's what I was trying to satirize in the last post. People saying 'look at all the notes! It must be really well researched!' haven't actually traced them. But so long as you follow source reference to the end so that you don't end up suggesting or claiming that, say, references to something by soldiers in the early July letter writing frenzy are so many individual verifications of the incident, when in reality or likelihood they're just repeating the same story making camp rounds as they wrote like a game of Telephone in letters to loved ones, not sworn testimony designed to be viewed as such. Dark Cloud, Here is the bottom line... and I should probably be talking to you in private about this, but.... I want this book to appeal to the "military mind," as well as the so-called scholar. It is a military analysis, but it also dispels old saws and silly prejudices and preconceptions, as well as contrived situations that in all likelihood never existed. That all, of course, will only be accepted by those with open minds... completely excluding buffoons like "keogh." The footnote/endnote issue is ancillary... something that can be resolved by simply changing me computer formatting. What, for the knowledgeable or casual reader is easier to deal with? As for content, we are extremely limited because of the era, the lack of timely testimony, the media attention, the chest-pumping, and the "oh, yeah, I remember," crap from 50 years after the fact. The most oft-quoted source I use is the RCOI. After that, I am forced to use a combination of letters, many from right after the battle, to those written in 1881 and thereabouts, and of course, the Walter Camp letters, interviews, and other correspondence. None of any of that drives the book, per se. The thrust is logic and reason, accompanied by archaeological and artifactual findings (I differentiate between "professional, school-trained" and "amateur metal-detecting") military exigency, and common sense. It is all I have to go with. Am I wrong? And stop equivocating DC... nail me with this stuff, will you? It's important!For reading comfort, am I hearing that footnotes, as opposed to "endnotes" anywhere, are best? As for quality, I can only use what I am left with. I have sifted out almost all of the "opinion" of others, and have substituted my own experience, my own knowledge. The footnotes-- with one or two exceptions-- are direct. The only reason I say, "exception," is because there are a couple of instances where I cannot get access to the referenced book. Oh, and DC... Happy New Year! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Dec 27, 2011 12:25:54 GMT -6
Fred,
I have seen your use of citations, you are in a far superior category to writers like Donovan, Philbrook and Ambrose.
I learned in grad school to check citations, find them and see if they match what author says they do. The authors I list above all fail this test.
Another concern is that the authors face numerous decisions on how to interpret many (hundreds) of battle events. In every case, they go for the most dramatic, not the most probable.
The conclusion is that these authors are writing historical fiction. The Sharpe and Flashman novels also use citations and make an effort to use some real facts. But these authors are more honest in where they use fiction, as opposed to Donovan, Philbrook and Ambrose.
And I am staying away from the fact that Ambrose is a a lifelong plagiarist, infecting all his work.
Fred, I have been a second reader on some 30 theses. Your citations are acceptable. So keep pressing on.
Will
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Post by fred on Dec 27, 2011 15:53:19 GMT -6
In the same book by MR Donovan his next paragraph states "Boyer approached Custer as the Officers walked back to their troops. He said "General, I have been with these Indians for thirty years, and this is the largest I have ever heard of" Custer waved him off. Again no source for this. However, Scanning through his second book "A Terrible Glory" on page 209 he uses this exact same quote, but this time he does have sources. Here is an interesting little tidbit that may have some relevance, however remote: In the battle of the Washita (Indian Territory [OK]), 27Nov1868, against the Southern Cheyenne, Black Kettle’s village, before the attack, CPT William Thompson (B) said to Custer, “‘General, suppose we find more Indians than we can handle, etc.’ Custer said gruffly, ‘Hell, all I am afraid of we won’t find half enough. There are not Indians enough in the country to whip the Seventh Cavalry’” [James R. Foley, “Walter Camp & Ben Clark,” Custer and His Times, Book Five, p. 117]. And it is not annotated! The previous footnote referred to Custer's own book, My Lie... er... Life on the Plains, so maybe the author assumed the reader would just believe this quote came from the same source, but I would think that is pretty sloppy work. I would never use a direct quote-- and in this case, two of them within the same marks-- without telling where the quote(s) came from. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Dec 27, 2011 16:05:06 GMT -6
And of course the final arbitreur is the publisher and what audience the book is intended for.... A very limited audience/book buyers would want the footnotes. I believe Fred's publisher, who has a lot of military type books, has some guidelines to follow. Britt, I hadn't thought of that; you may very well be correct. Thanks. And you are also correct, this thing is far from an RCOI re-hash. Fred, I have seen your use of citations, you are in a far superior category to writers like Donovan, Philbrook and Ambrose. I learned in grad school to check citations, find them and see if they match what author says they do. The authors I list above all fail this test.... Fred, I have been a second reader on some 30 theses. Your citations are acceptable. So keep pressing on. Will, Thank you for that vote of confidence. It is very much appreciated. My concern with this thing is to make it credible. There will always be those who will interpret something differently, yanking it out of context completely... we see this being done constantly on the other boards... but I am not trying to reach those idiots. Their prejudices will always remain. The people I am interested in reaching are those with more questions than answers; those who are or were involved with the military; those people who cannot make heads or tails out of certain events. This is, as well, one of the reasons I do not dwell on-- other than a mere mention-- events like Reno's retreat from the woods. What is to be learned? Same with the 26th... no one disagrees; events happened, they are related... we basically have a complete "photograph" of the day; no maneuver; no tactics; no strategy; just bravery runs. Few lessons learned. On one hand, a complete fiasco; on the other, a perfect defense. Case closed. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Dec 27, 2011 19:22:24 GMT -6
Whatever about the notes Fred get the maps correct.Modern contour maps that can be opened out so that the reader can refer to them without paging back and forth.Can you show the extent of the village,the depression into which Reno feared charging,the location of the correct number of markers,the suggested skirmish lines,the actual positions the coys occupied when first hit,Custer's route to LSH?Maps make a military book. The very best of luck Fred.
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Post by fred on Dec 27, 2011 19:52:17 GMT -6
... get the maps correct. Modern contour maps that can be opened out so that the reader can refer to them without paging back and forth. I am doing precisely that. I think I have mentioned this before, but I am going to contract for some graphics and that includes maps. I may use a combination of modern topo, as well as two-dimensional relief maps (I don't know what else to call them) similar to Google landscaping. Maps are extremely important in this type of endeavor. Village... yes; very important, especially in relation to theories about Ford B. Reno's ravine/depression... yes; it is still seen on modern topos and that was instrumental in figuring out where Reno stopped, how he stopped, his route, and how his battalion was re-configured. It is a unique theory I believe has by-passed everyone I have read. Yet its location is extraordinarily clear and supported by several accounts. Markers... aha! Amazing that you said that. I have broken down the archaeological maps, and have eliminated even more markers than the archaeologists did, especially when compared to unit strengths. Like DC has said, a lot of the markers make no sense and I think I have addressed a good deal of that. Great pick-up, Wild!! Skirmish lines... yes; I have addressed Reno's thoroughly. I have even worked on Calhoun's and have some disagreement with Richard Fox on that, though not dramatically. I also address the "last stand," "no last stand" issue. Company locations... yes; precisely... and how they were hit. Custer's route... yes; one of the best chapters, I think. Thanks, Wild. Greatly appreciated! Happy New Year. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by zekesgirl on Dec 27, 2011 20:15:41 GMT -6
I'm anxiously awaiting this one, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Dec 28, 2011 13:24:08 GMT -6
Whatever about the notes Fred get the maps correct.Modern contour maps that can be opened out so that the reader can refer to them without paging back and forth.Can you show the extent of the village,the depression into which Reno feared charging,the location of the correct number of markers,the suggested skirmish lines,the actual positions the coys occupied when first hit,Custer's route to LSH?Maps make a military book. The very best of luck Fred. Wild, Richard you are a man after my own heart. That has always been a problem for me when dealing with the technical aspects of the battle. I have to take 3 or 4 different maps and piece them together. Sometimes the arrow pointing North is different. Capt Fred if you can, please put as Richard said a complete map of the different locations we discuss Write faster, like ZGal I am anxiously awaiting book. Hope you Gentlemen and Ladies had a good Christmas, and I wish you a Happy, Healthy and Safe New Year Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Dec 28, 2011 17:48:49 GMT -6
Dan: I hope you and everyone else had a wonderful Christmas as well.
I have been very busy these last days working on a model Old Iron Pants gave me for Christmas. It is a 1/144 scale Fletcher Class destroyer, which will become USS Nicholas, named for Major Samuel Nicholas, the first officer in naval service commisioned by Congress and the man who probably recruited you Dan at Tun's Tavern. It is very big and will approach three feet long when finished.
Hope every one will have a Happy New Year.
Map Fred, really good topo maps. Chapter end notes.
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Post by fred on Dec 28, 2011 18:05:49 GMT -6
Map Fred, really good topo maps. Chapter end notes. Well, I will discuss the footnotes/endnotes business with McFarland and I, personally, have no objection to end-of-chapter notes, though I tend to find them more cumbersome than literal endnotes. At least with endnotes, you stick a bookmark in the spot and then just keep referring back there. With endnotes at the end of each chapter, you have to keep moving the bookmark. But, as I said, I guess McFarland will make the final decision. I agree with all of you about the importance of maps. It is also a real bug-a-boo of mine and it is something I will address thoroughly. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Dec 29, 2011 0:33:36 GMT -6
From what I've read, no publisher likes to have a fold out map insert and it probably raises the price quite a bit. It might be better to retain the rights to the maps and then create and sell a Bonafides sized map that can be rolled or folded. Then it can be sold separately at the museum and elsewhere. A full size map with trails and timelines would be a few steps above the Bonafides map. The trick is to get the Reno Creek route on one side of the map and the LBH valley on the other. Quite a large map to get some scale to it. The book may have to settle for page and 2 page sized maps.
bc
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2011 7:42:55 GMT -6
Britt,
I am not a big fan of fold-out maps; they are too cumbersome in general. If anything, a folding map inserted into a pocket at the end works better. Barring that, you have to go with full-page maps and they have to be broken up, yet contiguous. In other words, a map of the Reno Creek route has to end where the next map begins... or there may even be some overlap. With this event, it is probably less important to show the full Reno Creek route-- since virtually nothing happened there until the last two miles-- unless I decide to include a possible location for the morass and the so-called "eastern" lone tepee. That would merely include No-Name to the east and South Fork to the west; the rest is just wasted space.
Those last 2 miles of the creek would need to include Gerard's Knoll; the real lone tepee; Middle Knoll; North Fork (where Custer watered); Cooke's Knoll; Ford A; Custer's route to the right; Reno's route to Ford A; the Cooke-Custer meeting spot; Reno's assembly area; the Custer sighting location; directional arrows indicating Custer's and Reno's routes; the river flow; the 10-man Reno scout... what else? Anything?
Then separate maps for other things, especially Reno's valley actions; the ravine; 3,411; etc.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2011 8:51:28 GMT -6
From what I've read, no publisher likes to have a fold out map insert and it probably raises the price quite a bit. I will spill some beans here. This is taken from my table of contents, such as it is right now: List of maps— [page tentative] 1. Benteen’s Scout… • Divide separation to turn • No – Name Creek to the morass 2. Reno Creek: No – Name Creek Environs… • No – Name Creek • Morass • South Fork • “Eastern” or spurious lone tepee 3. Reno Creek: The Flats… • Gerard’s Knoll • Lone tepee • Middle Knoll • Reno’s route • Custer’s route • Cooke’s Knoll • Ford A • Cooke – Custer meeting point • North Fork watering point • Reno’s assembly area • Custer sighting from the valley 4. Reno in the Valley… • River course • Reno’s route • Battalion configuration • Dismount and pivot • New battalion configuration • 3,411 and Custer’s viewing • Skirmish line advance • Pullback to timber • Possible M Company penetration • East bank satellite village 5. 3,411… • Custer’s route to • Cedar Coulee • Sharpshooters’ Ridge • Weir Point • Kanipe drop-off • Martini message 6. Custer’s Route to Calhoun Hill… • Luce/Nye – Cartwright • Route to Ford B • Route from Ford B to Calhoun Hill 7. Benteen Along Reno Creek… • Meeting Kanipe • Meeting Martini • Route to the LBH • Crow scout and turn to Reno Hill 8. Custer’s Route to Last Stand Hill… • Ford D • Route to Cemetery Ridge 9. Company Dispositions… 10. C Company Charge and Retreat… Comments are welcomed. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 29, 2011 9:12:29 GMT -6
Fred: If you are going to do maps, and I think it a necessity, my preference would be something along the lines Britt suggests. A number of years ago I bought a three map set of Gettysburg for my father. Each of these three maps were identical in terrain, the only difference being that each one showed the action on a particular day. They were quite large, larger than a standard USGS 1:24,000 sheet, and included sufficient detail to follow the battle.
As I understand your intent, you need something on the order of a 1:12,500 scale to mark all of the significant places and events, without cluttering the map. Unless you intend to develop your own map from scratch I don't think anything in that scale is available for modification. Having that scale though should enable you to 1) Develop a large, for sale seperately map, preferably rolled. as Britt suggests and: 2) Include page size inserts off the same map showing each event or route and inserting them into the book at the appropriate place. I don't believe any event would exceed page size maps at 1:12.500 scale, with the possible exception of Battle Ridge which could be conviently broken into two seperate pages if necessary.
I have a complete set of 1:24,000 USGS, and a technique I use is taking the map repoductions from Where Custer Fell and zeroxing them onto transparancies creating overlays for my map set. Works quite well, with only a little distortion from the copy process.
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2011 9:54:58 GMT -6
Chuck,
These are really good suggestions and I will save your post and present it to the publisher, hopefully, very soon.
Thanks!
Best wishes, Fred.
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