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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 22, 2011 7:15:05 GMT -6
Q. What time of day was it when the village was first seen by you, and how far was Major Reno’s command from the village, and how far was gen. Custer’s column from it?
A. I had seen the village before the commands separated.
Q, Describe fully and clearly the location of the village when it was seen by you; the topography of the country around it in reference to the stream, the hills and mountains around: as it appeared at the time or as subsequently ascertained by you.
A. The village was situated along the left bank of the Little Big Horn and owing to the lay of the land; that is, the bends of the streams, and the timber around on the left bank, it was impossible unless you got out on the plain to see much of the village. I could see some of the teepees, but it was impossible to see the whole extent of it; and never having been over the ground wince where the village stood, I don’t know the lay of the country there.
Q. From the view you had of the village or of the Indians, what was your opinion at the time as to the size of the village; that is, the effective fighting force; and state to what extent those impressions were confirmed by events that transpired after,
A. I don't think I ever made an estimate of the strength of the Indians till it was over; there were more Indians than I ever saw before. I had seen immense numbers of Indians from the top of the bluffs while out scouting, and knew there was a very large village there.
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jag
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Post by jag on Dec 22, 2011 9:05:12 GMT -6
Thanks to everyone here. I think though that in AZ Ranger's post it becomes abundantly clear what he couldn't and didn't "report saying"...
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Post by benteen on Dec 22, 2011 9:59:37 GMT -6
Gentlemen, I'm trying to understand this difference in view points. I believe the question is, did Varnum see, or think, or report that the village was past point A. From what I read of Varnums statements, he says that the village is on the left bank of the LBH River, he couldn't see the entire or extent of the village because of the timber blocking his view. If the village is past the timber, and the timber is past point A, than by deduction is he not saying that the village is past point A. Or as usual am I missing something.
Be Well Dan
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jag
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Post by jag on Dec 22, 2011 10:56:51 GMT -6
Gentlemen, I'm trying to understand this difference in view points. I believe the question is, did Varnum see, or think, or report that the village was past point A. From what I read of Varnums statements, he says that the village is on the left bank of the LBH River, he couldn't see the entire or extent of the village because of the timber blocking his view. If the village is past the timber, and the timber is past point A, than by deduction is he not saying that the village is past point A. Or as usual am I missing something. Be Well Dan Dan, While waiting for Reno to get ahead, LT Varnum reported in, saying he saw signs of Indian village north of Ford A.First of all there is no evidence to suggest that Custer waited for anything that day and he didn't here either. 2nd, at the time there was no Ford "A". Fred 3. Varnum reported to Custer, who asked him what he had seen. Varnum replied that the village was out of sight behind the bluffs, but the valley was full of Indians. [53]Varnum never offered, neither was he asked at the RCOI if he reported to Custer. These interviews with Camp were years later and based upon what Varnum knew in hindsight after the fact. They didn't know at the time whether they were hunting one big village, this evidenced by Custer's message back to Benteen stating "Big Village", as if it was a shock to have found such a thing, or a string of smaller villages as had been found at the Washita. Varnum's statements to Camp told Custer no more than what he was told & knew when he left the Crows Nest. A whole lot of Indians doing what? Running? Did Varnum report that as well? There were at the time Indians running some of the horses in to the camps, did he report this? Of course Varnum would say that he reported to Custer, wouldn't he? Otherwise it would have been dereliction of duty on his part not to have done that. How many times, when and where was it reported by others that "the valley was full of Indians"? As usual with Walter M. Camps cogitations this one is another legend into history.
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Post by bc on Dec 22, 2011 13:43:44 GMT -6
What I have a problem with is this, "LT Varnum reported in, saying he saw signs of Indian village north of Ford A." There is no proof of this. Actually, there is: At the RCOI, 1. Varnum thought the separation must have occurred after passing a tepee that stood on Reno Creek. [145] • When asked about a village on the right bank of the LBH, Varnum thought the Recorder meant in the area leading up to the river, i. e., along Reno Creek. Varnum mentioned an “old tepee… and a piece of another tepee.” He said this was a mile from where Reno crossed. [168] 2. Varnum was unsure what Reno’s command had seen, but Varnum “had seen the Indians in the bottom for an hour or more before the separation took place….” Varnum had been on the high bluffs. [139] 3. “There were more Indians than I ever saw before. I had seen immense numbers of Indians from the top of the bluffs while out scouting and knew there was a very large village there.” [140] Solves a couple of issues here, doesn't it? Moving down Reno Creek, Varnum and Strode passed the “lone tepee” some distance to the left of the tepee, then over on high ground where they could look down the valley of the LBH. They turned back and eventually met Custer’s column. [61] [Hammer, Custer in ’76] From the Walter Camp letters and interviews, Hardorff, On the Little Bighorn With Walter Camp: 1. As they rode down Reno Creek, Varnum “reported to Genl. Custer two or three times on what I saw, but got at last far to the left front and found I had only Pvt. Strode… with me.” [53] 2. “As our paths had diverged to some extent, I was some time rejoining the command and found all my scouts bunched at the head of the column.” [53] 3. Varnum reported to Custer, who asked him what he had seen. Varnum replied that the village was out of sight behind the bluffs, but the valley was full of Indians. [53] Seems to me that while Varnum said the village was "out of sight," the village was there. Merry Christmas everyone. Best wishes, Fred. I'm with Fred here. I don't think Varnum rode all the way over to Custer just to whistle Dixie. Custer then allowed Varnum and Hare (at Varnum's request) to go with Reno. Probably right after they left is when Cooke and Keogh ended up riding ahead to check things out as Custer was still intending to stay behind Reno to support him. bc
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jag
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Post by jag on Dec 22, 2011 19:08:58 GMT -6
Actually, there is: At the RCOI, 1. Varnum thought the separation must have occurred after passing a tepee that stood on Reno Creek. [145] � When asked about a village on the right bank of the LBH, Varnum thought the Recorder meant in the area leading up to the river, i. e., along Reno Creek. Varnum mentioned an �old tepee� and a piece of another tepee.� He said this was a mile from where Reno crossed. [168] 2. Varnum was unsure what Reno�s command had seen, but Varnum �had seen the Indians in the bottom for an hour or more before the separation took place�.� Varnum had been on the high bluffs. [139] 3. �There were more Indians than I ever saw before. I had seen immense numbers of Indians from the top of the bluffs while out scouting and knew there was a very large village there.� [140] Solves a couple of issues here, doesn't it? Moving down Reno Creek, Varnum and Strode passed the �lone tepee� some distance to the left of the tepee, then over on high ground where they could look down the valley of the LBH. They turned back and eventually met Custer�s column. [61] [Hammer, Custer in �76] From the Walter Camp letters and interviews, Hardorff, On the Little Bighorn With Walter Camp: 1. As they rode down Reno Creek, Varnum �reported to Genl. Custer two or three times on what I saw, but got at last far to the left front and found I had only Pvt. Strode� with me.� [53] 2. �As our paths had diverged to some extent, I was some time rejoining the command and found all my scouts bunched at the head of the column.� [53] 3. Varnum reported to Custer, who asked him what he had seen. Varnum replied that the village was out of sight behind the bluffs, but the valley was full of Indians. [53] Seems to me that while Varnum said the village was "out of sight," the village was there. Merry Christmas everyone. Best wishes, Fred. I'm with Fred here. I don't think Varnum rode all the way over to Custer just to whistle Dixie. Custer then allowed Varnum and Hare (at Varnum's request) to go with Reno. Probably right after they left is when Cooke and Keogh ended up riding ahead to check things out as Custer was still intending to stay behind Reno to support him. bc "All the way" bc, just how far do you think he was away? When Varnum testified he was more interested in testifying about hurrying off with Reno and calling back to Wallace about coffee coolers than he was in reporting any findings he had to Custer. Stands to reason that if Custer was sending off Reno to attack why should he report anything? He didn't. There are subtle and not so subtle clues in Camps retelling of Varnums ministrations on the subject. One big one was "Varnum replied that the village ... He didn't know at the time whether it was one big one or a whole lot of smaller ones strung out somewhere he couldn't see. "the village" was a hindsight observation based upon what he afterward knew, not what he knew at the time. A village would have been entirely appropriate language for him to have used, but "the village", the one and only one? And I could just hear that conversation with any commander in his right mind. Lets see. Here was a scout reporting seeing "the village" based upon how many tepees? 10, 20, 40? "How many tepee's did you see Mr. Varnum?" "A few? How many is a few" How many Indians did you see Mr. Varnum? A lot? How many is a lot Mr. Varnum? 300, 500, 1000?" "More than you've ever seen"? "How many is that, 200, 400, 2000? Wouldn't anyone suppose that if such a report had been made and he had just sent Reno off to face these "valley full of Indians" that Custer would want to know what he was sending Reno into? "Were they running away Mr. Varnum? the questions are endless here. Yet all he reports is "the (hidden) village" and a whole lot of Indians more than he ever seen. Yeah right. And if anyone believes this I've got a bridge to sell them dirt cheap. As for voting your favorite here. It makes no different to me who sides with who. What matters is what was true. Find that and we'll all vote.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 22, 2011 22:37:35 GMT -6
Thanks to everyone here. I think though that in AZ Ranger's post it becomes abundantly clear what he couldn't and didn't "report saying"... Jag you must have missed this part: there were more Indians than I ever saw before. I had seen immense numbers of Indians from the top of the bluffs while out scouting, and knew there was a very large village there.
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jag
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Post by jag on Dec 23, 2011 11:47:57 GMT -6
Thanks to everyone here. I think though that in AZ Ranger's post it becomes abundantly clear what he couldn't and didn't "report saying"... Jag you must have missed this part: there were more Indians than I ever saw before. I had seen immense numbers of Indians from the top of the bluffs while out scouting, and knew there was a very large village there. It has been said that Custer didn't trust his scouts. While that might have been true. Would he have had any cause whatsoever to have mistrusted Lt. Varnum, one of his own men? There is a huge disconnect between Varnum's (via Camp's ministrations) and the reality in all of this. If Varnum made the report(s) that he said he did via Camp, were they as he, Varnum stated, not just to the court, but to Camp as well - what he might have said years later to pad his own butt, this to include AZ Ranger's last observation and quotation? If Custer implicitly trusted his own Lieutenant then why not at that time this report by his own trusted lieutenant send this message to Benteen? Benteen, come on, big village, be quick, bring pacs, ps bring pacs? Why wait 20 to 30 minutes later to send such a message if he already knew through one of his own, Lt. varnum, the size and scope of his quarry? What? He didn't trust Varnum? The over-reactive and battle starved Indians scouts I can see why Custer wouldn't trust them, but Varnum, come on, give me a freak'n break, will ya? The fact is that Varnum didn't make those reports, if he had of he would have recalled Benteen right then and there. What? Ride on a few hundred meters or so and water his horses and another 5 to 10 minutes wasted, while all the while he knows what he's up against via Varnum's supposed reports, again further waiting, mulling things over in his mind, being distrustful of what Varnum just reported? Varnum fabricated all that years after the fact and like many others added to and embellished his story to cover his own behind. I can't believe you guys believe everything these guys say. Really now, if Varnum did say anything to Camp he was clearly blowing smoke up someone's arse to cover his own. Else the results would have been significantly different due to him telling Custer just in the nick of time that there was a valley full of a lot of Indians, more than he'd ever seen and a huge camp to match their numbers there because he saw a small part it and reported all this before Reno ever left Custer. BS, he was so damned excited by the time he arrived at the prospect of going into that valley of death that he forgot all about reporting anything and chastised Wallace for staying behind.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 24, 2011 1:54:14 GMT -6
We can't believe what they say according to you, so when someone else quotes it you can say it didn't occur either in RCOI or other accounts because you don't believe it?
Here is your original post
Have no problem with that at all. What I have a problem with is this, "LT Varnum reported in, saying he saw signs of Indian village north of Ford A." There is no proof of this.
Those accounts are sufficient proof for me that it could have occurred and that is about all we hope for. When on the 7th ranch we rode to hill where we could see up the valley and it was not far from Reno Creek and close to SFRC.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 24, 2011 2:32:36 GMT -6
Here is the question and answer at RCOI just prior to one I posted of Varum's testimony. He makes it clear that he reported to Custer and the following Q and A which I posted is the what he saw.
Q. Was there any separation of the command; and at what point did, the separation of Maj. Reno's command from Gen. Custer’s occur?
A. The command of Maj. Reno was passing Gen. Custer and his staff at the time I reported to Gen. Custer that was about a mile from where major Reno afterwards crossed the Little Big Horn. I started on and fell in with the command as it went,, I think one company of the battalion h-ad crossed the river when I reached it,
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 24, 2011 2:37:20 GMT -6
Jag these are all from the RCOI and it seems consistent with later accounts don't you think?
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jag
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Post by jag on Dec 24, 2011 7:19:37 GMT -6
Jag these are all from the RCOI and it seems consistent with later accounts don't you think? Jeesh, 3 or 4 posts just to made one G. D. point, what's up with that? Look you believe whatever you want to. Believe Goldin, Kanipe, Thompson who the hell ever, makes no never mind to me. All I can say here is, if He did as you believe he did, then you should have a hell of a lot of ammo to fire at those who say that Benteen dawdled or Reno failed when Custer had the information he needed and failed to act upon it. I've heard all those arguments and so have you, those "if only" arguments, "if only" Reno had held that G.D. timber another 15 to 20 minutes. "If only" Benteen had been 15 to 20 minutes faster instead of p!ss dawdling around. Ring any frak'n bells for ya? Well, maybe they've got a point because someone sure screwed up those 15 to 20 minutes and according to you it was Custer failing to act early enough upon, quote "the big village" and quote "a valley full of Indians" that Varnum supposedly and most assuredly reported early enough to do something about it. Yeah right.
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Post by markland on Dec 24, 2011 10:23:33 GMT -6
This is just an observation but GAC had briefed his officers that he expected to have to fight 1500 warriors. To the best of my knowledge, that number alone would constitute, to paraphrase, more Indians and the largest village that Varnum or any of the others had ever seen. GAC more than likely was aware of that and thus heard nothing that he had not anticipated.
Billy
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Post by benteen on Dec 24, 2011 11:52:43 GMT -6
From the book "Custer and the Little Bighorn" by Jim Donovan" Custer stated to his Officers " The largest Indian camp on the North American continent is ahead and I am going to attack it" So I think it is safe to say Custer was likely aware of what he was facing.
Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Dec 24, 2011 12:02:43 GMT -6
I don't think the amount of Indians in the fight mattered nearly as much as the amount of fight in the Indians. Not original I know, but that does not mean is is not appropriate.
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