|
Post by BrokenSword on Jan 28, 2008 11:51:50 GMT -6
Elisabeth- Thank you. The avatar is, of course, Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday in Tombstone. I am much better looking and far more dashing (recall my original avatar), however Kilmer's 'over-the-top' Doc Holiday accent seemed to go along with the idea of Benteen's accent. Plus I get bored with the same old thing all the time.
Melani- I agree with all you said, but it's hard to believe that today's standards of accuracy are all that much better at times. Note: recent news headlines surrounding Heath Leger's death, and a number of New York Times stories. Not as important to be accurate with details as it is to be first with the rumor
I completely agree about the use of 'congestion of the brain' as a polite term for alcoholism.
Poe having rabies is a new one on me, but, now that you bring it up, he did seem to avoid water as a drink.
M
|
|
|
Post by elisabeth on Jan 28, 2008 12:03:51 GMT -6
Thought it was. Am about to watch that for the first time (oh, the shame) having recorded it from TV last night. Looking forward to the accent. I'm sure it's one of the many ways Benteen managed to annoy Custer ...
|
|
|
Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 28, 2008 12:12:23 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by harpskiddie on Jan 28, 2008 12:20:36 GMT -6
Michael:
This is a serious question regarding Benteen's accent, just for general information of myself and others. How much of an accent would remain in the speech of a tidewater Virginian who was transplanted to St. Louis in his mid-teens, spent 11 or so years there, fought throughout the Civil War, and spent thirteen years in the "cosmopolitan" Seventh Cavalry, before testifying at the RCOI?
All this talk of accents has me wondering.
Gordie MC
|
|
|
Post by BrokenSword on Jan 28, 2008 12:24:19 GMT -6
Elisabeth-
No need for shame, in fact, I think you're in for a treat. Fun movie.
I was going to give you one funny little mistake in the film. But, I cut it. Nothing to do with the story, never-the-less wouldn't want to distract you.
M
|
|
|
Post by gocav76 on Jan 28, 2008 12:29:48 GMT -6
Elisabeth, I may be wrong, but I just don't understand how Benteen could have a deep southern accent. Virginians just don't sound like someone from Alabama,Mississippi, or Georgia. Virginians living near Richmond, Fredricksburg,and Petersburg do say things differently than West Virginians. My mother was from southern Illinois, and they spoke with a little southern accent, thus Benteen living in Missouri (next door to Illinois) still wouldn't be exposed to the deep southern accent.
|
|
|
Post by gocav76 on Jan 28, 2008 12:36:54 GMT -6
Gordie, Just saw your post--we must have been on the same wavelength on the accent question.
|
|
|
Post by mcaryf on Jan 28, 2008 12:40:55 GMT -6
Hi Chevrolet
I have been posting here for a while and my particular interest is the timeline for events.
I do have John Gray's book Custer's Last Campaign. It has some very useful research material in it but sadly contains a number of crucial errors, omissions and actual falsifications of the evidence. I have found with this particular book by John Gray that you have to double check the original source material. He did pass away in the year it was published so it is quite possible that he was unwell when doing the work or perhaps it was completed by others.
I will give you one example. John Gray uses the arrival of Herendeen's party that had been concealed in the timber to claim that Reno met Herendeen on Reno Hill and hence the Reno advance to Weir point had not started. However, if you consult Herendeen's original statement (it is in Custer in 76 a collection of WS Camp's interviews) he clearly states that he met Reno on the bluffs at the furthest point of Reno's advance towards Weir Peaks. John Gray alters Herendeen's words so that they say he met Reno on Reno Hill.
My broad timeline for events on Reno Hill has Benteen arriving 10 - 15 minutes after Reno, Custer's firing heard about 5 minutes or so after this, Hare going for the packs and ammunition a few minutes after this, the audible Custer firing lasting about 20 minutes, Weir on his own inititative advancing about 30 minutes after Benteen's column arrived (note Reno had gone to the river looking for dead and wounded so Weir could not find him to request permission again to advance), the ammunition packs came up about 10 minutes after the Weir Advance and at this time Benteen advanced with the rest of his battalion, this being about 40 -45 minutes after Benteen's arrival on Reno Hill.
As I posted before Custer's battle had pretty well ended by the time Weir reached Weir Peaks and this was also probably about 45 minutes after Benteen had arrived at Reno Hill. There was really nothing that Benteen's column might have done when he arrived at Reno Hill that would have changed Custer's fate. There were still masses of warriors in the valley and the pack train, which Benteen had been told to cover (my interpretation of the note), was still threatened for 5 - 10 minutes. Thus if Benteen had set off as soon as the warriors had moved North he would have reached Weir Peaks just about in time to see the final moments of the Custer fight.
I hope you have found this helpful. There is a whole thread about the options for Benteen in Battle Basics but as usual on these types of Bulletin Board it is mainly individuals rehashing their own entrenched views of the participants so rather more heat than light!
Regards
Mike
|
|
|
Post by BrokenSword on Jan 28, 2008 12:53:14 GMT -6
Gordie-
This is a serious answer. I don't know. I've mused on that myself and for the reasons you stated.
My father was in the military and we moved to all corners of the country (literally) when I was a kid. I personally have, apparently, no accent. Like they train disc jockeys to sound on the air.
Elisabeth pointed out that Benteen may have used his to annoy Custer. I would bet she is right, but I think that in actually Benteen probably had, by 1876, little of it left. Enough to be noticeable, but not enough to be unintelligible.
I do feel that he may have been wont to put on a display of exaggerated accent at times. When he was trying to be aggravating or was himself aggravated. As, I perceive him to have been by the RCOI proceedings.
Your ideas on erroneous substitution of 'seven' for the spoken 'sevil' (several) by the recorder seem to me to be entirely firm. Some of his sentences make no sense without a word that is specific in meaning - "We were exactly several miles away." Not the way a person would state it.
Really wish I could offer more.
M
|
|
dcary
Junior Member
Posts: 83
|
Post by dcary on Jan 28, 2008 13:01:03 GMT -6
As to the accent question -- we're talking here of 130 years ago, before first radio then movies and TV started flattening out America's various accents. What may be true today of a Virginia accent may not have been as true then. The "seven vs. several" question also involves what the court steno thought he was hearing and where he came from, as well.
|
|
|
Post by BrokenSword on Jan 28, 2008 13:17:14 GMT -6
gocav-
I tend to agree with you, however I have noticed a difference between accents in Georgians and Alabamians, and those two share a common border. Just as I hear a distinct difference in speech patterns between Alabamians and Mississippians. Geez, I have a few relatives in Mississippi that I have to listen closely to in order to catch it all, and sometimes I get a, 'Say, what?' from them as well. That's just in one family.
Even in England one doesn't have to travel very far to encounter some communities that are difficult to understand by their own countrymen.
I read one time that, if today, you heard a Shakespearian play, spoken as it would have been in Shakespeare's own time - you would be hearing accents very close to those of people from the Ozark Region of the USA. 'The Beverly Hillbillies' come very close. Jed Clampet and not Sir Lawrence Olivier. Amazing to contemplate, but that comes from a dialectic expert and an Englishman.
I doubt that Benteen's accent presented a problem for anyone - unless maybe he wanted it to.
M
|
|
|
Post by Scout on Jan 28, 2008 13:19:09 GMT -6
"Symptoms.--This disorder should be regarded more as a symptom than a clincal entity. These are not very characteristic or constant. In active hyperemia [abnormal volume of blood in the vessals within the brain] there may be headache, vertigo, a sense of fullness or pressure, irritability, rapid pulses, insomnia, restlessness, confusion of ideas, and in some cases, delirium and hallucinations. "
So what are you trying to say here Doc sword? Is that a polite way of saying the DT's? Extreme alcoholism?
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jan 28, 2008 14:12:09 GMT -6
I ain't got no accent needa, bein' from New Yawk, and all!
By the way, the eastern Virginia accent is heavily influenced by the old English accent of the late 18th century. Truth. Va-gin-ya.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by BrokenSword on Jan 28, 2008 15:00:51 GMT -6
Scout-
"...So what are you trying to say here Doc sword? Is that a polite way of saying the DT's? Extreme alcoholism?..."
Yup. The man (wherever he died, exactly) arrived pre-embalmed.
M
|
|
|
Post by BrokenSword on Jan 28, 2008 16:07:27 GMT -6
dcary-
That's a valid point about the pre-homogenized language/s in the States.
Benteen's time was closer to the American Revolution than our time is to Benteen. I know that in the Carolinas, in the 'back county' away from the few urban centers, Gaelic (the Scottish variety) was widely spoken and was in fact the common language until a time well after the Revolution. About 1800 as I recall. What did THAT do for accents in those areas, only a few years later?
Even today in the tide-water or coastal areas there, some words still carry a distinctive accent in them. For instance: 'It's about time,' is pronounced, "It's aboot toym.' Not at all unlike the way many Canadians will often pronounce the word as 'aboot.'
Maybe Gordie can back me on the Canadian accent statement. Hopefully so. I'm not EVEN going to mention my ex-inlaw Cajuns.
M
|
|