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Post by conz on Dec 3, 2007 14:28:20 GMT -6
Of course this revolves around the issue of whether you think he could have done any good in a reasonable time frame.
Clair
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Post by fred on Dec 3, 2007 14:31:28 GMT -6
Clair--
I voted, but I do not like the choices. Not enough gray of explanation.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by conz on Dec 3, 2007 14:32:10 GMT -6
Yeah...too short a description block, I think. Any other recommendations welcome...
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Post by fred on Dec 3, 2007 14:45:19 GMT -6
Yeah...too short a description block, I think. Any other recommendations welcome... Clair-- No, these are good, but I somehow think they need a better explanation. If you modify your first post by further clarifying each of the choices, then I think it will be fine. In other words, you make the Benteen-helping-Reno choice seem like it was that cut and dry. Well, maybe it was... maybe I'm only being picky because I can give you 30 reasons why that was the correct choice-- in my mind. Let it be; it's fine the way it is. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by chevrolet on Jan 26, 2008 21:53:26 GMT -6
Benteen was given a direct order, 'be quick, bring packs'. If there had been a battle on top of the Reno hill top when Benteen and the trops arrived, then, in my opinion, he would have had to stay. There wasnt. The Indians had now massed towards Custer and the 5 troops and left Reno mostly, if not entirely unopposed. I would assume thats why Weir did what he did after so much time had elasped on that hill top, wouldnt you say. Benteen surely hadnt made a move, and so, I say he disobeyed that direct order from his commanding officer, to be quick and bring packs. Surely Reno didnt need all the ammunition that the pack train was carrying, and the order was to bring Custer the packs, and 'be quick'. I don't saee any other way to interpret those orders.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 26, 2008 23:30:29 GMT -6
Welcome to the boards, chevrolet. You should check out the Benteen's Options thread, and others devoted to the debate over what the note/order/message/whatever to Benteen meant.
Gordie MC
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Post by fred on Jan 27, 2008 7:03:53 GMT -6
Oh, Gordie, Gordie! You rogue, you! That'll drive him to the Mama's Home Cooking show, for sure!
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Post by Melani on Jan 27, 2008 9:50:15 GMT -6
My instinctive reaction is to say that Benteen had orders to support Custer. I also instinctively feel that it just would have ended up with a lot more dead soldiers. But still, those were his orders.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 27, 2008 10:08:45 GMT -6
Its hard to argue that Custer supported Reno and then say Benteen could only support Custer by going directly to him wherever he was.
AZ Ranger
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 27, 2008 10:19:27 GMT -6
BINGO!
As usual, Ranger, you are right on target.
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 27, 2008 11:08:40 GMT -6
Support Custer, yes indeed. Physically join Custer? I think, not necessarily. Custer promised to support Reno, and chose to do it by a flanking movement. Even Reno, in his July 5th report, accepted that this was reasonable. (It's only once the CYA gets under way that he starts arguing he expected support only from the rear.) Benteen joining Reno's attack in the valley would surely have been the ideal. It's quicker -- no time wasted traipsing over the bluffs and however far beyond them Custer had by then gone -- and attracts Indian attention, letting Custer open a second front by attacking over Ford B, C or D. This is my instinctive reaction in turn, but I can't help feeling it's something like this that Custer had in mind when he sent the order.
The flaw, obviously, is that by the time he arrives, there's no longer a viable valley attack for Benteen to join. If he'd known where Custer was and what the plan was, he might well have risked charging anyway. But since at first glance he thinks (not knowing Reno's been detached) that the whole command has been whipped, he quite reasonably sees no point in flinging three more companies at an Indian force that's already -- apparently -- defeated eight. He goes to what he assumes to be the remnants of the regiment, and thus the command post, in order to help salvage what can be salvaged. No doubt he fully expects to find Custer there. Once he discovers it's only Reno, he has to think again. Clearly the multi-pronged approach has failed; the Indians have zoomed off to the north, obviously to confront Custer; from the numbers he's seen, and the devastation inflicted on Reno's command, it's reasonable to think Custer will be beaten back too. No-one in their right mind would imagine for a moment that Custer will just sit there and let himself get surrounded; the logical expectation is that he, too, will be beating a hasty retreat. So galloping off to "join" Custer, who may be travelling as fast as possible in the opposite direction, may not be the brightest idea ...
[AZ -- you've said in x words what it took me to say in xxxxx. Good stuff.]
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Post by chevrolet on Jan 27, 2008 11:14:09 GMT -6
Just my opinion. the orders were direct, no? they didnt say, hay Reno ol buddy, if you get a chance, see if you can find Mcdougal and if you can please bring up the packs. we got a big village here. might need your help. They were explicit. Be Quick. Doesnt get any plainer than that. After the pack train got to the ridge, and the ammunition was there, time to head out, those were the orders. The outcome of Greasy Grass Ridge is anyones guess. Mine is, yes, there would have been more dead on both sides, of course, but I for one do believe that, with 6 more troops, at the least, coming across that ridge, the outcome would have been a whole lot different. The corridor was open on the top for Benteen to see the standards, guidon's, which ever one prefers, and the mass of the Indians would not have been concentrated on surrounding, and they would have been at the least held at check, maybe. Ammunition would have been available in a short time. I do not think the flow of indians across the river in mass would have been so easy, stopping or holding them there was a key, having repeaters on their part or not. Think about it. 6 or 7 troops of the 7th on gallop, at the least. 6 times 45. 270 more troopers. The troops C,E,F,I and L still a viable fighting force, if the move from Benteen had been as soon as he got the packs and ammunition. I think the outcome would have been in the favor of the 7th, eventually, but thats me. Time was crucial, and Custer knew it. Thats why he said, 'Be Quick', and Benteen was not. Reguardless of his hate for Custer, the other men depended on his quickness and he failed them also. Just my thoughts and I am a new commer to the board, yes, but have been on that battlefield numerous times. Have read at least 30 plus books over the last18 years. I ride horse's a lot out here in Wyoming, same terrain as that battle field, looking for artifacts where the troopers had lookouts, searching for where Chief Joseph would be coming out of the divide, which is behind my property, on the ridges looking out over Sand Coulee and the Bear Tooths, where I'd be today if it weren't for having to fix my darn truck, and in a least 20 minutes , give or take a few, and I'm 58 years old, I can make the battle ridge from Reno entrencement with no problem. Read an article once that said Custer made the mistake of depending to much on Benteen. He should have had Keogh in place of Benteen. I believe that. It was a bad move on his part and costly. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why he made that decision. Benteen's option's? Just my opinion, is, he had one, if there was no fighting going on , of any scale, when he and the troops got to Reno, then as soon as the packs arrived, he had orders to get the ammunition, and be quick about it. Direct order. Whats the option? Obey or disobey an order are the options I see. I do not see any reason not to obey. If Reno was out of it, then put someone else in charge, and head out. From the time Custer sent Reno to charge the village, Custer was waiting for Benteen with intel. didnt happen. Just my opinion folk's. And I have found some very early cases on those lookout ridges.
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Post by chevrolet on Jan 27, 2008 11:30:25 GMT -6
Sure have opened up an old sore. Sure wish ol man Weir was arround to tell what really happened on that ridge, like he was going to tell Elizabeth. Benteen had to know where or which direction Custer and the troops went. 5 mounted troops leave tracks and then there is the sound of gunfire. No matter what he said about support to Reno, and Custer's flanking move i'm sure was his intention for support, gives no reason in my book, for Benteen not to be quick. He knew Custer and the other troopers were not in the valley fight. Reno told him Custer wasnt down there with him, and Custer sure as heck didnt do about face and head home. You'd have to be blind after Weir's point not to see where the troppers were and the fighting going onthere, if he had gotten to there earlier enough. I enjoy hearing the responses. Guess we all have our opinion's . s
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Post by George Mabry on Jan 27, 2008 14:10:47 GMT -6
Good synopsis Elisabeth.
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Post by mcaryf on Jan 27, 2008 18:08:12 GMT -6
Hi Chevrolet Welcome. I think you will find that Benteen did move out as soon as the lead ammunition packs arrived on Reno Hill. Unfortunately Custer and his command were already dead by then so it made no difference. The clearest indication that Custer was already dead comes from the account of Standing Bear you can read it here: www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/standing_bear2_little_big_horn.htmlIf you couple that with George Wylie's account given to WS Camp and included in "Custer in 76" you will see that Weir spotted the Indian's victory parade along Custer Ridge soon after he had arrived on Weir Peaks. Regards Mike
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