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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 3:56:10 GMT -6
A waypoint is fixed, the time is not. Arrived around, departed about are all open to question. Perhaps it wasn't an 1 hr 40 min scout. Maybe it was 2 hours or 2 and half hours. This effects and has ramifications on everything that happens thereafter. Book represents one thing, evidence now indicates that the book is wrong on the distance and speed of the scout. But that's ok, just change two variables to the hold the one indesputable constant, the timeline. (1) We have a timing waypoint, by the crossing of the divide and halt 3 agreed timings. Benteen separates at 12.10pm, give or take a few mins. (2) If you are correct and the scout was 2.5 hours, the right wing was dead before Benteen arrived at Reno Hill. We know you are wrong. You know you are wrong. (3) You have a low threshold for evidence, even if I believe that Benteen probably covered more than the straight line 7 miles between 12.10pm and 1.50pm. Topography. WO An arrival time of an hour later, approx 4pm, and the right wing is still fighting. You are wrong.
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Post by mac on Feb 25, 2015 4:03:12 GMT -6
I am getting sick and goddam tired of defending my work to someone-- or some-- who clearly has an agenda... and that has never been something I have been accused of. If you read the book with a clear head and no gleeful preconceived agenda you would remember my caveat in the Preface, page 3, righthand column, last paragraph: "Another issue needing to be addressed was the discrepancy between actual terrain and terrain measured on a flat-surfaced map. This turned out to be easier than I imagined at first, simply because time ruled all! For example, if the map distance showed Captain Fred Benteen traveled seven miles between noon and 2:00 PM, we compute that speed at 3.5 miles per hour. The distance Benteen traveled, however, would be somewhat greater because of the constant up-and-down over the hills and valleys he encountered. That would mean his speed was actually greater as well, but overall, irrelevant, because other events dictated when he began, and when and where he wound up at 2:00 PM. Nothing is made up, contrived, or jerry-rigged for convenience; everything is driven by accounts of those who were there! It is merely a matter of degree; e. g., does “gallop” mean eight miles per hour or fifteen miles per hour? Speed, therefore, would become the least relevant constituent in the analysis, everything else dictating that particular facet of the timeline."For guys like you and some of the idiots on the other boards, the slightest explanation that doesn't fit with your mindset is enough to invalidate the entire study. I resent and reject that type of bullshit analysis-- if I even dare denigrate the word to explain that sort of nitpicking, invalid claptrap-- as nothing more than a feeble attempt to justify your obvious agenda. Here you go and make no bones about it: I stand by every single word I wrote in that book and I have provided all the evidence extant to support every single word of it. The timeline alone contains more than 1,000 accounts of support, none of which you or your buddies will be able to break. Any deviations from reality were made to ease the difficulty of reading and are explained fully like the explanation above. Deal with it or else throw the book away: you have wasted your time, my time, and the time of everyone on these boards. Best wishes, Fred. You present the scout as 7 miles at a pace of 4.2mph. The scout is now determined to be 10 miles - a rather significant difference and definitely not nitpicking. Increasing the speed to cover the additional mileage to hold your time is significant. Had Benteen arrived 30 minutes or more later than represented it effects the rest of the entire timeline. It is clear why you hold the hour and forty minute duration regardless of speed and distance irregularities. You present 4.2mph as "rapid indeed". Today you say 6mph would not be a big deal and that 8+mph would be quite attainable. Again, nothing nitpicky about pointing out these significant differences and discrepancies. The point here Scar is that the differences are not "significant" as you state. The time is set by recognised sources. If they are wrong present your evidence to support that contention. No matter what, as long as those sources stand, Benteen did not dawdle and exact speed is immaterial as the current discussion only makes him faster. Time to walk the walk Scar not just opine the opinion. Cheers
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 25, 2015 4:38:28 GMT -6
Based on GAC's exprience on Washita, could Custer's move North have also been then to make sure there wasn't another village beyond what they just found, not just looking for Ford D? Beth Beth, at that point the last thing Custer needed was an extra village. His attention was on what he already had or what already had him. For whatever reason he was trying to find the end of what he already had on his plate.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 4:40:34 GMT -6
You present the scout as 7 miles at a pace of 4.2mph. The scout is now determined to be 10 miles - a rather significant difference and definitely not nitpicking. Increasing the speed to cover the additional mileage to hold your time is significant. Had Benteen arrived 30 minutes or more later than represented it effects the rest of the entire timeline. It is clear why you hold the hour and forty minute duration regardless of speed and distance irregularities. You present 4.2mph as "rapid indeed". Today you say 6mph would not be a big deal and that 8+mph would be quite attainable. Again, nothing nitpicky about pointing out these significant differences and discrepancies. The point here Scar is that the differences are not "significant" as you state. The time is set by recognised sources. If they are wrong present your evidence to support that contention. No matter what, as long as those sources stand, Benteen did not dawdle and exact speed is immaterial as the current discussion only makes him faster. Time to walk the walk Scar not just opine the opinion. Cheers I am not claiming he dawdled. The book presents 4.2mph as rapid. Now that the distance has increased to 10 miles, the speed is increased to 6 mph. Fred told us yesterday 8+ was more than doable. The desired effect of describing 4.2 as "rapid indeed" was to despel the dawdling myth in from the readers mind. This shows an agenda.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 25, 2015 4:55:42 GMT -6
At the bottom of it, whatever speed Benteen was moving at, it was just right. Too fast and he might have been past Reno Hill before Reno arrived there and closing on Keogh and Calhoun. He shows up shortly after Reno arrives on his hill and just when he most needs support. If many things didn't work out well for the 7th that day, Benteen's timely arrival on Reno Hill works out. It ain't pretty, but it is timely. Shaw, your post is more to the point than even you may think. Had Benteen arrived earlier he would not have been called to the top of the hill by a scout. He would have continued on the main trail , the ramifications of this may well have been disastrous.
Regards, Tom
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Post by mac on Feb 25, 2015 6:06:20 GMT -6
The point here Scar is that the differences are not "significant" as you state. The time is set by recognised sources. If they are wrong present your evidence to support that contention. No matter what, as long as those sources stand, Benteen did not dawdle and exact speed is immaterial as the current discussion only makes him faster. Time to walk the walk Scar not just opine the opinion. Cheers I am not claiming he dawdled. The book presents 4.2mph as rapid. Now that the distance has increased to 10 miles, the speed is increased to 6 mph. Fred told us yesterday 8+ was more than doable. The desired effect of describing 4.2 as "rapid indeed" was to despel the dawdling myth in from the readers mind. This shows an agenda. No, it shows that 4.2 is rapid and is a minimum speed. He may have actually gone faster. All that matters anyway is his arrival time!! I think what shines from the book is that there is no agenda just referenced data to support the arguments put. Coincidently the data in this case overwhelmingly shows that Benteen did not delay in any way. Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 6:40:42 GMT -6
I am not claiming he dawdled. The book presents 4.2mph as rapid. Now that the distance has increased to 10 miles, the speed is increased to 6 mph. Fred told us yesterday 8+ was more than doable. The desired effect of describing 4.2 as "rapid indeed" was to despel the dawdling myth in from the readers mind. This shows an agenda. No, it shows that 4.2 is rapid and is a minimum speed. He may have actually gone faster. All that matters anyway is his arrival time!! I think what shines from the book is that there is no agenda just referenced data to support the arguments put. Coincidently the data in this case overwhelmingly shows that Benteen did not delay in any way. Cheers You cannot represent 4.2mph as a rapid speed over 7 miles considering terrain and stops and starts, and then claim that 8+mph is more than manageable over 10 miles. Rapid is defined as "occurring with great speed", "happening quickly". To characterize 4.2mph as rapid and then claim 8+mph is more than achievable, is disingenuous. The lenght of the scout increase 3 miles therefore the speed is arbitrarily increased to 6mph to fit the timeline. If 8mph is more than achievable, then 4.2mph can hardly be classified as rapid. after all, this is the military led by great leaders and not the brownies as Fred so kindly reminded me.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 25, 2015 7:14:18 GMT -6
Mac
Here is another thought from someone that actually rode it. The degree of difficulty would be greater if you go a shorter distance in some cases. If they had no problem with bailing off of a ridge and going straight down that would cut distance. Do the same thing up a hill and it wears more on the horse. So you trade increased length for reducing difficulty. So it is logical that if you stick to the same general route and make it easier that you could go faster or if you climb straight up and down you cut distance at the expense of increasing difficulty.
What Fred was stating in the book was it doesn't mater if the start time for Benteen is known along with the end time. There are many possibilities within the confined area to have a potential route.
It is a bogus argument that Fred did not consider what we rode. It was posted in July of 2010 and Fred requested a copy which I sent to him. He unlike some made an informed decision based upon looking at available information.
When Fred maps it using a flat map and it is close to what we rode as far as general direction we know it is close enough. When Clair Conzelman maps it on flat line and its the same general location that is not insignificant. Very seldom did all three of us agree on anything. We read the accounts and have the same angle of departure. We have the same terrain feature forcing the turn to the right and that turning point is consistent in all three mappings.
So it is insignificant if you go slower over more difficult terrain or faster over slightly less difficult terrain. Either would wear on the horses and the end point is reach at the same time.
My opinion as someone riding it is that it has a degree of difficultly consistent with the accounts of those that rode it with Benteen desrcibed and to make it where they did in the time as determined from the accounts they were busting their butts and not dawdling.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 7:26:09 GMT -6
At the bottom of it, whatever speed Benteen was moving at, it was just right. Too fast and he might have been past Reno Hill before Reno arrived there and closing on Keogh and Calhoun. He shows up shortly after Reno arrives on his hill and just when he most needs support. If many things didn't work out well for the 7th that day, Benteen's timely arrival on Reno Hill works out. It ain't pretty, but it is timely. Timely for Reno, absolutely - no question. Could hardly be considered timely from GAC viewpoint.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 25, 2015 7:45:57 GMT -6
At the bottom of it, whatever speed Benteen was moving at, it was just right. Too fast and he might have been past Reno Hill before Reno arrived there and closing on Keogh and Calhoun. He shows up shortly after Reno arrives on his hill and just when he most needs support. If many things didn't work out well for the 7th that day, Benteen's timely arrival on Reno Hill works out. It ain't pretty, but it is timely. Timely for Reno, absolutely - no question. Could hardly be considered timely from GAC viewpoint. If Benteen followed Custer's trail, which he would have, if not called to the hill, by scout. And if he got past the NA's in the valley, ignored Reno's dilemma, and the packs could keep up, and was able to fight through the NA's between him and Custer, by the time he arrived the same bullet would already be lodged in Custer's brain. How is that for a run on sentence, my teachers would be proud to take that one apart. Time to move on to Ford D. Any objections?
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 25, 2015 8:03:15 GMT -6
(1) We have a timing waypoint, by the crossing of the divide and halt 3 agreed timings. Benteen separates at 12.10pm, give or take a few mins. (2) If you are correct and the scout was 2.5 hours, the right wing was dead before Benteen arrived at Reno Hill. We know you are wrong. You know you are wrong. (3) You have a low threshold for evidence, even if I believe that Benteen probably covered more than the straight line 7 miles between 12.10pm and 1.50pm. Topography. WO An arrival time of an hour later, approx 4pm, and the right wing is still fighting. You are wrong. SF,
That post kind of encapsulates your entire superficial muddled thinking on this aspect of the battle.
You assume another 50 mins for the "scout", and then everything carries on with exactly the same timings.
But it doesn't, does it? There are serious knock on implications of such a delay for Benteen in relation to the pack train/morass. Think about it, and why Benteen would be losing more time going forwards if he had returned to the main trail around 2.40pm rather than around 1.50pm.
It is not simply a question of moving Benteen's arrival time at Reno Hill from around 3pm to around 4pm.
And what in practical terms can any officer arriving upon Reno Hill at 4pm do to save GAC....?
WO
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Post by callmeconrad on Feb 25, 2015 8:13:33 GMT -6
You cannot represent 4.2mph as a rapid speed over 7 miles considering terrain and stops and starts, and then claim that 8+mph is more than manageable over 10 miles. Rapid is defined as "occurring with great speed", "happening quickly". To characterize 4.2mph as rapid and then claim 8+mph is more than achievable, is disingenuous. The lenght of the scout increase 3 miles therefore the speed is arbitrarily increased to 6mph to fit the timeline. If 8mph is more than achievable, then 4.2mph can hardly be classified as rapid. after all, this is the military led by great leaders and not the brownies as Fred so kindly reminded me. Most of the time when I go to the corner shop a few blocks away, I move at a leisurely stroll. If it's 5 minutes to close and I realise there's no milk for breakfast tomorrow I'll go at a jog. If I ran into a friend in the checkout who said that I seemed a bit out of breath, I would claim I had hustled down, or had gotten there pretty quickly, or something else along those lines, implying that I had moved "rapidly indeed." If I then got a call on my phone telling me there was an emergency at home, I would be sprinting back at easily double my speed, probably more. It's "more than achievable" and I wouldn't say my earlier claim to my friend about hustling was being disingenuous. The question you should be asking is to AZ Ranger asking him if he thinks that distance is doable at that average speed on that ground. If his answer is yes then that's the point where I'd drop it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 8:22:00 GMT -6
An arrival time of an hour later, approx 4pm, and the right wing is still fighting. You are wrong. SF,
That post kind of encapsulates your entire superficial muddled thinking on this aspect of the battle.
You assume another 50 mins for the "scout", and then everything carries on with exactly the same timings.
But it doesn't, does it? There are serious knock on implications of such a delay for Benteen in relation to the pack train/morass. Think about it, and why Benteen would be losing more time going forwards if he had returned to the main trail around 2.40pm rather than around 1.50pm.
It is not simply a question of moving Benteen's arrival time at Reno Hill from around 3pm to around 4pm.
And what in practical terms can any officer arriving upon Reno Hill at 4pm do to save GAC....?
WO
It wouldn't have any implication on the pack train or the stop at the morass to water since Benteen came out ahead them - a change in arrival time wouldn't change that. Nothing practical could have been done to support GAC with a 4pm arrival time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 8:23:28 GMT -6
Timely for Reno, absolutely - no question. Could hardly be considered timely from GAC viewpoint. If Benteen followed Custer's trail, which he would have, if not called to the hill, by scout. And if he got past the NA's in the valley, ignored Reno's dilemma, and the packs could keep up, and was able to fight through the NA's between him and Custer, by the time he arrived the same bullet would already be lodged in Custer's brain. How is that for a run on sentence, my teachers would be proud to take that one apart. Time to move on to Ford D. Any objections? Agree - no objections.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2015 8:29:17 GMT -6
You cannot represent 4.2mph as a rapid speed over 7 miles considering terrain and stops and starts, and then claim that 8+mph is more than manageable over 10 miles. Rapid is defined as "occurring with great speed", "happening quickly". To characterize 4.2mph as rapid and then claim 8+mph is more than achievable, is disingenuous. The lenght of the scout increase 3 miles therefore the speed is arbitrarily increased to 6mph to fit the timeline. If 8mph is more than achievable, then 4.2mph can hardly be classified as rapid. after all, this is the military led by great leaders and not the brownies as Fred so kindly reminded me. Most of the time when I go to the corner shop a few blocks away, I move at a leisurely stroll. If it's 5 minutes to close and I realise there's no milk for breakfast tomorrow I'll go at a jog. If I ran into a friend in the checkout who said that I seemed a bit out of breath, I would claim I had hustled down, or had gotten there pretty quickly, or something else along those lines, implying that I had moved "rapidly indeed." If I then got a call on my phone telling me there was an emergency at home, I would be sprinting back at easily double my speed, probably more. It's "more than achievable" and I wouldn't say my earlier claim to my friend about hustling was being disingenuous. The question you should be asking is to AZ Ranger asking him if he thinks that distance is doable at that average speed on that ground. If his answer is yes then that's the point where I'd drop it. Apples and oranges. If you sprinted home for an emergency and claimed to have moved "rapidly indeed" and then later claim "well I could have easily gone twice as fast", then I would question your original "rapid" claim.
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