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Post by dave on Feb 28, 2015 20:06:07 GMT -6
In the process of reading all 168 pages on Benteen Dawdling on the other board I have learned so many things. Among the more interesting was that Benteen and his unit the 10th MO cavalry spent quite a bit of time in Oxford, my home town, and North Mississippi during the late War. In fact Benteen's unit was part of General A.J. "Whiskey" Smith's force that burned the city of Oxford to the ground on August 22, 1864. He and his regiment along with the rest of General Sam Sturgis's got their butts whooped at Brice's Cross Roads by ole Nathan Forrest his self. Isn't life full of surprises. Regards Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 1, 2015 7:00:23 GMT -6
There certainly are good discussions that go on both boards. Some have a lot you need to sort through. The Benteen Dawdling thread caused us to ride to see for ourselves. Darling had done most of the research by putting together the accounts. He even flew over it.
I went after the my job because it was outdoors. Not only do we use horses we also have aircraft, helicopter use, 4X4 trucks, boats, personal watercraft, and just about any means of transportation needed to do the job. Even walk some of the time.
I am in the end of my career with one more commitment. That being organize the reserve program . I moved from full time employment to a commissioned reserve. I told them I would not do it unless they gave me the title of Captain. I see official emails talking about Captain Andrews so at least some think it official. The Director saluted me in the hallway Friday so that's good enough for me.
When I started everyone wore a western hat and levis. I still do. The majority had horse allotments where the Department paid to feed your horse. They provided a horse trailer and a truck to pull it.
I learned a lot about horses during my 35 years and also learned that each discipline in the horse community has different needs in the horse they choose and a different skill set to do whatever they do.
I worked the International Sportsman Expo in Glendale AZ this year and one of the Guide Services Booth had a cowboy in appearance guide so I stopped to talk with him. He told me about riding horses from a blood line that had come from the cavalry. He had worked ranches all of his life and currently packs people to fishing and hunting areas. When he rode one of those horses he told me he was amazed at how fast it traveled without stopping. He ask how far had they traveled and was told a 40 mile loop. He thought it was only 5 to 6 hours.
So its not just the training and conditioning its the horse and the bloodline also. My heavy duty quarter horse would be the first one up the first hill and last at the end. My Tennessee Walker whose name is Custer would at least in his younger years have walked out at 9 mph and finished about the same. So when someone says the have a fast walking horse that should give you pause at what that meant. To me it does not mean 5 mph. My horse would walk 4 mph faster than that.
That's why I think it improbable to duplicate Custer's ride down Reno Creek. You don't have the cavalry horse nor the training or conditioning that they had. I think an endurance rider that does the 100 mile in one day event would laugh at those that don't think Custer could move fast down Reno Creek. They even vet check their horses along the route. Thompson's horse at some point before it quit would fail a vet check. If you had an endurance rider and horse do they ride then some would complain not fair.
A friend of mine told me a fair is where your grandmother takes her rhubarb pie.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by Beth on Mar 1, 2015 17:12:15 GMT -6
I've always sort of assumed that when they talked about some officer havinga fast walking horse it was either a Tennesse Walker or a Kentucky Mountain Horse.
Where did the Army get it's horses at that time?
Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 1, 2015 17:28:31 GMT -6
All over, Beth. Military contracts mostly, Comanche had been a wild horse from the plains, low bidder helped. Officers often procured their own. For all I know about this some could have been glue factory rejects!
Regards, Tom
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Post by montrose on Mar 1, 2015 17:43:22 GMT -6
The Army had a depot and a small organization to buy horses. The commander was COL Sturgis, the paper commander of the 7th. He had been detached for this function for several years.
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Post by Beth on Mar 1, 2015 18:06:51 GMT -6
Interesting. Thanks!
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Mar 1, 2015 19:47:51 GMT -6
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Post by Beth on Mar 1, 2015 21:02:56 GMT -6
Thanks for the link. It's not unexpected about the horses. When they talk about a horses with feverish back, are they talking about the start of saddle sores or something like a hot spot on a dog? Not that it mattters, untreated it's going to be very very nasty. (at least I am assuming they would progress like bedsores) The thought of putting a saddle on a horse with such wounds though is chilling. I know it's a war but---- The book Black Beauty wasn't written until 1877 and the treatment of work animals wasn't really in the forefront of peoples attention until then. It sounds like Cavalry horses might of had a little better life that a lot of other working horses because they had someone at least nominally looking out for them to the best circumstances would allow--but still it was a short. painful and rough life. Here is a case I am familiar with because it made news when we were in Idaho. It's not pretty linkWhat did the soldiers do to prevent or deal with their own saddle sores? I will be enjoying reading the further information about the 5th Iowa Cavalry
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Post by herosrest on Jul 20, 2021 13:05:09 GMT -6
It seems to me, rightly of course, that a spanner is required to adjust these nuts and here it is link. Thank you. Take your meds. The cavalry advance on Little Bighorn river has become the stuff of counter-intelligent 'Bof' (as the French say) and here is why. Benteen arrived near the village at 2pm. Oh yes he did. Reno was sent across the river at 12:15pm. When Reno stood at Garryowen opening his fight, Benteen was stationary at a watering place and heard the gunfire. It would not have been heard whilst marching. It is known where Reno was when his gunfire was heard - Garryowen. It is 2,45 miles to Ford A as sound travels which means little due to a large number of variables which unfortunately include Benteen who was, extremely variable. Incising what is truly unfortunate and ribald historical assessment of timing and distance data with Benteen particularly, and Reno, arriving at Reno Hill (What a Stupid name) which is much better considered as Battle Hill or Siege Hill, then with Reno ordered to attack at 12:15 (yes he was) and Benteen arriving 2pm; Reno was on line by 1pm and a tawdry and defiantly slow Benteen was at most 5 miles behind and watering his command. comme ci comme ça but the good Captain was no more than 5 miles from Garryowen because why? Because his horses were thirsty. At his normal gait, Benteen would take more than an hour, or just about that, to reach Garryowen in a straightline and to that should be added time to cross Ford A. In reality he took an hour to reach Reno Hill. But did he...... I look HERE at E.A. Brinistool's presentation of Pvt. W.C. Slaper's adventures in the valley and up to Reno Hill. The somewhat surprising reality of the desperate straightsinto which that battalion plunged, is the men WALKING from the right bank of the river, up the srurs of ridge leading to the hill later so poorly, nee horridly, named. They walked up the bluffs leading their horses. This is one third a mile, 500-600 yards almost directly up and upwards by 200 feet. Every 2 yards forward, the terrain ascended one foot. That was a gruelling slog up the bluffs to the hill and, say what.... 600 yards 10 minutes. Try it some time. The mile and a third fromthe Garryowen timber to the river was a 4-5 minutes jobbie of chaos in the vein of pandemonium for some interesting reasons which aren't really relevant here. We have realistically accounted for 15 of Reno's minutes. Yey. It was probably and actually quite a bit more because it was a rag-tag unorganised retreat which was not presented properly at all, at all, to the 1879 Inquiry. Still, half the battalion made it out behind Reno's retreat. I cannot call it a charge and many people know why but I accept that this is a matter which people actually argue - go figure. Do we believe that Benteen saw skirmishers in Little Bighorn valley............ wow..... Hmmm... let's see. 13.5 miles to Custer and Reno separating and that took a reasonable 7mph overall average for two hours. During this time Benteen stated he moved at 5mph shadowing his recon team on ridges above his march. So when Reno & Custer were at 13 miles and separating, Benteen was at 9-10 miles of march. This was 12:15pm. Reno 10-15 minutes to LBH River 15-20 crossing and shake down and 10 more onto Garryowen and opening the fight with Custer's command opposite at Weir Peak crossing the saddle on their advance into Medicine Tail's Creek. Remember, Benteen could hear the gunfire from Reno's fight. Now this is 1pm. Benteen is 5 miles awy watering his horses. Where is the water hole - a little oasis 5 or so miles fromGarryowen, down Reno Creek.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 21, 2021 7:52:02 GMT -6
HR
Reno decides the timber is not defensible, and more importantly, the escape route to the south is open. That would be a failure of the mission. If they left to the south, Reno could only wave as they passed by on the bluffs.
He sees the Indians surrounding them in overwhelming numbers. Sgt Ryan gives a good description, and his conversation with Captain French before Reno gives the order. The order is for a Breakout. One of the ways to do it is to focus your power on a particular point of the surrounding enemy. Cavalry would use a charge to accomplish the breakout. It worked. Even the Indians state they gave way.
After a charge, the horses are not in a formation, and they need to rally. Sometimes they some soldiers behind to act as a rallying point. In this case, three companies were not enough and two out of the question. So Reno would have to select a rallying point on the fly and should be in the lead. I find it funny that some think disarray after a charge is not commonplace.
So Reno is on a retrograde with horses that have been allowed to run at full speed. He must select a rallying point, and they must attempt to break contact. This action is where the comments regarding running from Indians are valid but only to the degree that the soldiers were not battle-ready. If they all could shoot from their horse and Captain French, we would have hundreds of Indian casualties, or the Indians would back off. (Bad Medicine)
The horses slow and stop at the river, and Sgt Ryan states they put up a good fight. The running horse is out the occasion, and a soldier could focus on the enemy.
Could these particular soldiers have done it any better. I don't think so.
Regards
Steve
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Post by herosrest on Jul 22, 2021 3:51:45 GMT -6
Steve,
This is a debate which has long been nuanced into many forks but in the round, would Reno have done better standing in the timber, is the difference of opinion. Since that was the known, accepted and practiced method of countering a superior force of hostile Indians, the debate is justified and more so since support from Benteen was at hand. There is a difference of opinion and it is worthwhile for it to remain and continue. It was Bloody Knife who lost his head, apparently.
Regards.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 8, 2021 7:09:26 GMT -6
HR
You stated:
Since that was the known, accepted, and practiced method of countering a superior force of hostile Indians, the debate is justified and more so since support from Benteen was at hand. There is a difference of opinion and it is worthwhile for it to remain and continue. It was Bloody Knife who lost his head, apparently.
Reno's examples from Custer do not bear that out. His tactical choice was retrograde. At the Yellowstone, he dismounted and walked away. At the Washita, as the Indians began to build in numbers, he retrograded. Major Elliot went to ground defense as you suggested, and it didn't work.
Regards
Steve
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Post by herosrest on Dec 27, 2022 13:47:13 GMT -6
7th Cavalry offering hostile Indian's an Oyster. June 1867. Post Image linkWhen this type of defence fails - you get Keogh's swale. SourceHow the Cheyenne 'White Shield' fought Crook at Rosebud, June 17th, 1876. link.
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