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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 19:46:23 GMT -6
In your book you make a point of noting the speed of 4.2mph as being " rapid indeed". Based on discussions today and your comments, " rapid indeed" seems a rather strange choice of words. One would think there may be an underlining agenda. I am getting sick and goddam tired of defending my work to someone-- or some-- who clearly has an agenda... and that has never been something I have been accused of. If you read the book with a clear head and no gleeful preconceived agenda you would remember my caveat in the Preface, page 3, righthand column, last paragraph: "Another issue needing to be addressed was the discrepancy between actual terrain and terrain measured on a flat-surfaced map. This turned out to be easier than I imagined at first, simply because time ruled all! For example, if the map distance showed Captain Fred Benteen traveled seven miles between noon and 2:00 PM, we compute that speed at 3.5 miles per hour. The distance Benteen traveled, however, would be somewhat greater because of the constant up-and-down over the hills and valleys he encountered. That would mean his speed was actually greater as well, but overall, irrelevant, because other events dictated when he began, and when and where he wound up at 2:00 PM. Nothing is made up, contrived, or jerry-rigged for convenience; everything is driven by accounts of those who were there! It is merely a matter of degree; e. g., does “gallop” mean eight miles per hour or fifteen miles per hour? Speed, therefore, would become the least relevant constituent in the analysis, everything else dictating that particular facet of the timeline."For guys like you and some of the idiots on the other boards, the slightest explanation that doesn't fit with your mindset is enough to invalidate the entire study. I resent and reject that type of bullshit analysis-- if I even dare denigrate the word to explain that sort of nitpicking, invalid claptrap-- as nothing more than a feeble attempt to justify your obvious agenda. Here you go and make no bones about it: I stand by every single word I wrote in that book and I have provided all the evidence extant to support every single word of it. The timeline alone contains more than 1,000 accounts of support, none of which you or your buddies will be able to break. Any deviations from reality were made to ease the difficulty of reading and are explained fully like the explanation above. Deal with it or else throw the book away: you have wasted your time, my time, and the time of everyone on these boards. Best wishes, Fred. You present the scout as 7 miles at a pace of 4.2mph. The scout is now determined to be 10 miles - a rather significant difference and definitely not nitpicking. Increasing the speed to cover the additional mileage to hold your time is significant. Had Benteen arrived 30 minutes or more later than represented it effects the rest of the entire timeline. It is clear why you hold the hour and forty minute duration regardless of speed and distance irregularities. You present 4.2mph as "rapid indeed". Today you say 6mph would not be a big deal and that 8+mph would be quite attainable. Again, nothing nitpicky about pointing out these significant differences and discrepancies.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2015 20:11:09 GMT -6
All kidding aside when we went down what we named as Benteen's slide it was very steep and you had to navigate around a large ( 2 foot ) boulder. Chip went first and then myself on Roman. On approaching it I side passed Roman and then with front legs not moving swung his hindquarters around then we continued forward having gone around the boulder with leg control. One of the reasons that I liked Roman is the my leg cues produced to the desired results in the horse movement.
Next in line was Terry on Digger. Digger decided to jump the boulder but didn't quite make it. So now Digger is coming straight down Benteen's slide and so is the bolder right behind him. So it was chasing him down the slope. Fortunately there was no wreck but it was touch and go (literally) for a while. Quite scary watching it.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by Beth on Feb 24, 2015 20:16:26 GMT -6
Based on GAC's exprience on Washita, could Custer's move North have also been then to make sure there wasn't another village beyond what they just found, not just looking for Ford D?
Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 20:17:28 GMT -6
SF,
What is the point you are failing to make?
(1) We have known for 139 years that the Benteen battalion left the trail around 12.10pm and returned to the trail around 1.50pm. Those times are not estimated by distance travelled. They are fixed waypoints.
(2) I think 7 miles travelled is a little on the conservative side, due to the topography. Certainly for Lt Gibson and his detail.
(3) The only question is the additional fatigue impact of that poor terrain upon the Benteen battalion, yes? Fatigue matters. I was soundly sleeping through an Argentine artillery barrage before we took Mount Tumbledown and Mount William until my Gurkha Sergeant woke me.
(4) We have always known that the Benteen and Keogh battalions had a significantly higher workload on the 23rd and 24th than the Reno and Yates battalions, due to the pack train assignment. Yet Reno and his battalion showed some signs of fatigue on the 25th.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 20:22:16 GMT -6
Based on GAC's exprience on Washita, could Custer's move North have also been then to make sure there wasn't another village beyond what they just found, not just looking for Ford D? Beth Beth,
Yes, but he has boxed himself in somewhat by launching Reno. That attack needs supporting.
His best bet would have been to rest up on the 25th, monitoring the hostiles, before driving the village northwards into Terry on the 26th.
He only has a problem if the village started to disperse on the 25th and backtrack southwards towards the upper valley.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 24, 2015 20:25:13 GMT -6
You present the scout as 7 miles at a pace of 4.2mph. The scout is now determined to be 10 miles - a rather significant difference and definitely not nitpicking. Increasing the speed to cover the additional mileage to hold your time is significant. Had Benteen arrived 30 minutes or more later than represented it effects the rest of the entire timeline. It is clear why you hold the hour and forty minute duration regardless of speed and distance irregularities. You present 4.2mph as "rapid indeed". Today you say 6mph would not be a big deal and that 8+mph would be quite attainable. Again, nothing nitpicky about pointing out these significant differences and discrepancies. Mark, go out and find testimony and put your own timeline together. When you are done, come back and present it. Until then and I am am going to put this politely. Hush your mouth on this subject. Beth
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 20:30:13 GMT -6
You present the scout as 7 miles at a pace of 4.2mph. The scout is now determined to be 10 miles - a rather significant difference and definitely not nitpicking. Increasing the speed to cover the additional mileage to hold your time is significant. Had Benteen arrived 30 minutes or more later than represented it effects the rest of the entire timeline. It is clear why you hold the hour and forty minute duration regardless of speed and distance irregularities. You present 4.2mph as "rapid indeed". Today you say 6mph would not be a big deal and that 8+mph would be quite attainable. Again, nothing nitpicky about pointing out these significant differences and discrepancies. Mark, go out and find testimony and put your own timeline together. When you are done, come back and present it. Until then and I am am going to put this politely. Hush your mouth on this subject. Beth With due respect Beth, this is a public message board where opinions can be freely and politely shared.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 20:36:25 GMT -6
SF, What is the point you are failing to make? (1) We have known for 139 years that the Benteen battalion left the trail around 12.10pm and returned to the trail around 1.50pm. Those times are not estimated by distance travelled. They are fixed waypoints. (2) I think 7 miles travelled is a little on the conservative side, due to the topography. Certainly for Lt Gibson and his detail. (3) The only question is the additional fatigue impact of that poor terrain upon the Benteen battalion, yes? Fatigue matters. I was soundly sleeping through an Argentine artillery barrage before we took Mount Tumbledown and Mount William until my Gurkha Sergeant woke me. (4) We have always known that the Benteen and Keogh battalions had a significantly higher workload on the 23rd and 24th than the Reno and Yates battalions, due to the pack train assignment. Yet Reno and his battalion showed some signs of fatigue on the 25th. WO A waypoint is fixed, the time is not. Arrived around, departed about are all open to question. Perhaps it wasn't an 1 hr 40 min scout. Maybe it was 2 hours or 2 and half hours. This effects and has ramifications on everything that happens thereafter. Book represents one thing, evidence now indicates that the book is wrong on the distance and speed of the scout. But that's ok, just change two variables to the hold the one indesputable constant, the timeline.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 20:42:50 GMT -6
With due respect Beth, this is a public message board where opinions can be freely and politely shared. Who wrote that.....? WO
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 21:17:06 GMT -6
A waypoint is fixed, the time is not. Arrived around, departed about are all open to question. Perhaps it wasn't an 1 hr 40 min scout. Maybe it was 2 hours or 2 and half hours. This effects and has ramifications on everything that happens thereafter. Book represents one thing, evidence now indicates that the book is wrong on the distance and speed of the scout. But that's ok, just change two variables to the hold the one indesputable constant, the timeline. (1) We have a timing waypoint, by the crossing of the divide and halt 3 agreed timings. Benteen separates at 12.10pm, give or take a few mins. (2) If you are correct and the scout was 2.5 hours, the right wing was dead before Benteen arrived at Reno Hill. We know you are wrong. You know you are wrong. (3) You have a low threshold for evidence, even if I believe that Benteen probably covered more than the straight line 7 miles between 12.10pm and 1.50pm. Topography. WO
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 21:22:44 GMT -6
A waypoint is fixed, the time is not. Arrived around, departed about are all open to question. Perhaps it wasn't an 1 hr 40 min scout. Maybe it was 2 hours or 2 and half hours. This effects and has ramifications on everything that happens thereafter. Book represents one thing, evidence now indicates that the book is wrong on the distance and speed of the scout. But that's ok, just change two variables to the hold the one indesputable constant, the timeline. SF, The little matter of neither variable underpins the timeline, obviously. (1) We have a timing waypoint, by the crossing of the divide and halt 3 agreed timings. Benteen separates at 12.10pm, give or take a few mins. No surviving officer disagreed with that. (2) If you are correct and the scout was 2.5 hours, the right wing was dead before Benteen arrived at Reno Hill. We know you are wrong. You know you are wrong. (3) You have a low threshold for evidence, even if I believe that Benteen probably covered more than the straight line 7 miles between 12.10pm and 1.50pm. Topography. Whether he covered 7 miles or 10 miles in that time, it was not dawdling on that terrain. Far from it. WO
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Post by dave on Feb 24, 2015 22:04:21 GMT -6
WO
Harlan Ellisons' quote "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant."
Regards Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2015 23:07:22 GMT -6
When someone is confused between evidence given as testimony/accounts and routes which are consistent with but not evidentiary than its time to move on from discussing with them. Just how far out does ones opinion have to differ from one formed by evidence before I believe that they are either an idiot or have an agenda to disrupt?
I have found out.
Between the 7 miles straight line and the 10 miles we rode are many opportunities to ride a somewhat different route. For sure we know that Benteen did not ride the ridge line above SFRC but we did. I have stated that numerous times. When we reached that point where we were forced to turn to the right we rode to the point where Darling claimed that Gibson marked on a map. There was no way I was riding that far and not looking to see what Gibson saw. The GPS recorded where I rode since it was attached to my saddle.
So for sure the route ridden contains the difference of climbing up that last ridge and then switch backing off it.
The point of the ride was not to determine the length with any degree of certainty. Its was to see if the terrain fit the description including defiles and direction altering vegetation / terrain.
We found it as described and the route is generally the same as the flat line measurements of others.
Only someone with an agenda or an idiot would suggest what we rode (10 miles) is evidence of the exact route of what Benteen rode when the person that rode it tells them its not and includes at least a part of what Gibson rode alone.
I would have no problem with removing up to .5 miles just in one location for the difference of what Gibson rode and what Benteen might have ridden. I would also add a lot to what Gibson rode since he had a different mission.
It could even be possible that the battalion rode a lesser distance than Benteen since he was ahead of them and could direct them.
I also believe that the tail end could have been moving a lot slower overall rate and arrived at the morass up to 15 to 20 minutes behind the lead. I get that from the total time Benteen estimates of 20 to 30 minutes and tail end testifying to being there 10 minutes. Both testimony could be correct if the tail end is 10 to 20 minutes behind. It is quite possible that Benteen was ahead of the rear company by as much as 20 minutes when he reached Reno Creek. When that happens you have to reform and that would have occurred at the morass.
That is beauty of what Fred used to form the timeline. Benteen could have ridden 9.8, 9.2, 8.8 , 8.1, 7.5 or anything in between 7.2 and 10 using flat line and one persons attempt to ride it. Any of those distance would be consistent with speeds possible and the distances and the terrain. So we have a range of 4.2 mph to 5.9 miles per hour depending on which route you take. That range fits within the timeline and does not include anything that would cause a need to modify a timeline.
What anyone would need to do is prove the testimony accounts wrong the overall speed range of 4.2 to 5.9 mph is no help.
Only an idiot or an agenda driven person would suggest that you could add an hour to the time without supporting evidence.
So if the tail end was behind by 20 minutes their overall rate of travel is 4.9 miles per hour
If the distance for Benteen is 9.5 miles his overall rate of travel is 5.6 mph hour.
Bottom line any overall speed within that range (4.2 to 5,9) is proof that Benteen did not dawdle. The dawdling speed that some claim is 3 mph hours.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2015 23:24:45 GMT -6
This defile is a good example. We rode toward this drainage and then move around a quarter mile parallel till we found a trail through it. If a large groups was following behind they could ride directly to the place we entered the drainage. So they ride the hypotenuse and we rode the other two sides. AZ Ranger
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 25, 2015 0:46:00 GMT -6
At the bottom of it, whatever speed Benteen was moving at, it was just right. Too fast and he might have been past Reno Hill before Reno arrived there and closing on Keogh and Calhoun. He shows up shortly after Reno arrives on his hill and just when he most needs support. If many things didn't work out well for the 7th that day, Benteen's timely arrival on Reno Hill works out. It ain't pretty, but it is timely.
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