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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2015 16:16:26 GMT -6
Enough of wasting my time with you I am finished with playing your stupid games. Yes I agree and you are the square peg in my opinion. That being said Fred didn't need to take any of this into account since his timelines are account and not based upon guesstimates of routes and speeds. I can assure that if anyone maintains an average rate of 4.2 mph over the route they are still tired and horses worn. Regards AZ Ranger If they maintained the 4.2mph over 7 miles and were tired and horses wore, what would a rate of 6mph over 10 miles do? You cannot hold the time of the scout to 1 hour and forty minutes and increase the speed and mileage by 50% and 43% respectively. Benteen would either have to have left earlier or arrived at Reno Creek later. One or the other. Enough of wasting my time with you I am finished with playing your stupid games. Yes I agree and you are the square peg in my opinion.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2015 16:40:02 GMT -6
This assumes that they are moving the same speed the entire time, does it not? How fast could they have moved at the beginning and again moving down NNC. Exactly Tom The cavalry were masters at traveling at specific rate of travel on flat ground. The terrain in this case limits the ability to stay at those particular rates of travel. I am guessing they could be moving down noname at a faster rate of travel since it is downhill and relatively flat. A defile would cause them to slow and form single file move through it and then reform. Its obvious that they trotted sometimes because the state that in accounts and testimony. That seems normal to me when I move through country to mix up my speeds. What surprises me is when I get a reading of 11 mph and don't remember loping. I sure I did it and it could be explained by what a horse does when reaching the bottom of a drainage and then climbing up the other side. I suspect they want the momentum to carry them up the other side. So the speed would go from lope, to a trot to walk in a short distance. What we are talking about is an overall average of rate of travel. It is composed many different speeds and gaits most of the time. I have seen moving speeds of less than 1 mph and up to 15 mph without going into a true western gallop. You match the speed to the terrain and you keep moving is what I believe they were doing. I looked at readings that had an overall average of 3.5 mph and the majority of the recording were at 4 and 5 mph. It was the less than 2 mph that brought the average. In this case Benteen knows that someone may get into a fight soon and that alone should keep him moving. I am not sure you can tell the difference between 4.2 miles per hour and 5.9 miles per hour overall average. The cavalry walk is 5 mph so it would not take much trotting to go a little over a walk. You nailed it about trying to compare actual speeds for short distances with an overall average speed. They are not the same. Fred avoided the discussion of Benteen's overall rate of travel by using known accounts. Fred had all of this information and it was posted on the Benteen Dawdling thread on the other board. So anyone saying it is new information is not telling the truth. He chose to stick with the accounts for the timeline and let the Benteen Dawdling play out on his own. I would not consider it evidence since it is impossible to have anyone that made that journey verify it as evidence. What I wanted to see is if the terrain and defiles were there as they described and I found it to be consistent with their accounts. All I can say is that we rode and tried to duplicate what we believed to be the route. Someone else can ride it and they come up with different mileage. What I am sure of it that it will not be 7 miles if they rode the same way we did which is no way evidence that it was the exact route that Benteen rode. I believe it as close as I could ride it. The difference in mileage is how we negotiated terrain feature so someone else may not and shave some distance off. Regards Steve Just for proof that it is not something new it posted on the other board around July 25, 2010.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2015 17:14:10 GMT -6
SF, This assumes that they are moving the same speed the entire time, does it not? How fast could they have moved at the beginning and again moving down NNC. Correct. They could have gone a 1/4 mile at 12mph stopped a minute, and then gone 700ft at 1mph. That is all factored into the average speed from point A to B. The book states an average of 4.2mph for a distance of ~7miles and a duration of an hour and forty mins. A rapid pace is noted, freeing Benteen of the dawdling accusation. We now have new evidence showing the distance to have been ~10miles. We now are left with two variables. Fred wants to keep the duration constant to fit the timeline and therefore the new and improved average speed is 6mph. The book says a rapid pace of 4.2mph for 7 miles with rough terrain, horses falling out, and tired soldiers, and now we have 6mph for 10 miles over more of the same rough terrain and an unchanged timeline. Think that about covers it.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 17:23:36 GMT -6
Fred,
Just so I can challenge SF for the inanity of posting award before the competition deadline ends, I would like to point out that the UK Grand National winner completes 4.5 miles at Aintree in around 9.5 mins or 28 mph. Aintree is a flat left hand course, with spruce rather than birch fences, if that helps shed further light on the battle of the LBH.
Hope that proves beyond all doubt that the Benteen battalion was not dawdling in the upper drainage but, if only Cpt Benteen and Lt Gibson had not left their M1 Abrams at FAL, the pair of them could have raced across to Keogh and saved the entire right wing of the regiment whilst Weir got his farrier killed.
Sorted.
WO
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 24, 2015 17:56:09 GMT -6
Cool pics of it also Here is what it would look like if Benteen went to fast
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 24, 2015 17:58:54 GMT -6
Go to Camptown Races every Spring, seen that before!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Feb 24, 2015 18:07:14 GMT -6
I often think of how different the battle would have been if they had taken some Congreve or Hale rockets. They could have taken them out on the bench while Reno was in the valley and send a couple towards the pony herd and one or two into the village and we have a totally different battle. You wouldn't need to worry about accuracy or control. The noise alone would have scared those ponies so much their ancestories would probably still be running.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 18:40:16 GMT -6
So if Benteen was not dawdling, what were the likely fatigue factors for the Benteen battalion...?
(1) On the long 33 mile ride up the Rosebud on the 23rd, they were the battalion "eating dust" all the way with the pack train.
(2) 27 mile march on the 24th.
(3) Lengthy night march on 24th-25th (11pm-2am?).
(4) 7-10 mile detour (longer for Gibson detail) on the 25th through the harsher terrain of the upper drainages between Reno Creek and the upper LBH before rejoining the main trail, before joining the defeated Reno battalion.
WO
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Post by dave on Feb 24, 2015 18:56:45 GMT -6
AZ Based upon your having ridden the trail Benteen rode I believe you are the most qualified to answer some questions I have. Montrose recently posted one of his hypostheses:
3. "Benteen's scout covered 10 miles with significant speed and fatigue factors caused by much more complex terrain in badlands then in flat terrain. " I agree completely with his statement (which I am sure is a relief to him) and want to learn more.
Keeping that in mind my questions are: 1) How badly did the lack of water since 8 pm the night before affect the timing of the scout? 2) The horses performance must have been degraded by the difficulty of the terrain? 3) After this jaunt did Benteen spend too much watering at the morass?
From what I have learned about this whole military operation the terrain was the most influencing factor. Or am I wrong?
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 19:03:00 GMT -6
Having got himself in a position where one battalion (Benteen) was "scouting" as the nearest other battalion (Reno) was about to commence battle, what were GAC's concerns?
(1) He had Terry's orders to "feel to his left".
(2) He would not want hostiles in the upper LBH coming down and falling upon his rear as he attacked the large village seen from the CN.
(3) He would not want hostiles fleeing from his main attack unmolested southwards up the LBH.
It was still a bad route for Benteen to take across to the upper LBH. Judging by online maps, it would have been about 11 miles in a straight line without all the topographical issues. His mounts would be fatigued upon reaching the LBH, if faced with hostile reinforcements in a northerly direction or hostile flight in a southerly direction, and he had an inadequate combat force to tackle any sizeable satellite village in any event. Takes us back to "recon on the hoof", and after battle had commenced.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 24, 2015 19:03:51 GMT -6
So if Benteen was not dawdling, what were the likely fatigue factors for the Benteen battalion...? (1) On the long 33 mile ride up the Rosebud on the 23rd, they were the battalion "eating dust" all the way with the pack train. (2) 27 mile march on the 24th. (3) Lengthy night march on 24th-25th (11pm-2am?). (4) 7-10 mile detour (longer for Gibson detail) on the 25th through the harsher terrain of the upper drainages between Reno Creek and the upper LBH before rejoining the main trail, before joining the defeated Reno battalion. WO It sounds like the Army got their dollar's worth with those horses. Were they carrying feed for their horses or just counting on grazing?
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 19:11:26 GMT -6
Beth,
I suspect Fred can give you the exact feed issued on the 22nd.
GAC was not renowned for equine/animal welfare on campaign, from what I have read. I imagine some of the festering sores on the backs of the pack train mules would be grisly to more sensitive 21st century eyes.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 24, 2015 19:18:18 GMT -6
Having got himself in a position where one battalion (Benteen) was "scouting" as the nearest other battalion (Reno) was about to commence battle, what were GAC's concerns? (1) He had Terry's orders to "feel to his left". (2) GAC would not want hostiles in the upper LBH coming down and falling upon his rear as he attacked the large village seen from the CN. (3) GAC would not want hostiles fleeing from his main attack unmolested southwards up the LBH. It was still a bad route for Benteen to take across to the upper LBH. Judging by online maps, it would have been about 11 miles in a straight line without all the topographical issues. His mounts would be fatigued upon reaching the LBH, if faced with hostile reinforcements in a northerly direction or hostile flight in a southerly direction, and he had an inadequate combat force to tackle any sizeable satellite village in any event. Takes us back to "recon on the hoof", and after battle had commenced. WO If Custer thought there were hostiles in upper LBH, would he have thought it would have been at the most a couple 100 if that much? Custer knows he is heading to a big village from scout reports. He couldn't have expected a second perhaps almost as big village? If Benteen had encountered hostiles on his scout, and the hostiles took off would Custer have expected Benteen to give chase, possibly going even further away from the main body of troops, or would Custer have expected Bentee to stay in contact and let the hostiles go? Beth
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Post by Beth on Feb 24, 2015 19:23:05 GMT -6
Beth, I suspect Fred can give you the exact feed issued on the 22nd. GAC was not renowned for equine/animal welfare on campaign, from what I have read. I imagine some of the festering sores on the backs of the pack train mules would be grisly to more sensitive 21st century eyes. WO I am sure you are right. Not to mention the condition of the horses, I would think they were probably skin and bones with not an ouch of fat to be found. On the other hand though the officers seemed to be able to keep their own personal horses in good condition, was it because many had more than one? Or because they were better horses to begin with?
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 24, 2015 19:39:03 GMT -6
If Custer thought there were hostiles in upper LBH, would he have thought it would have been at the most a couple 100 if that much? Custer knows he is heading to a big village from scout reports. He couldn't have expected a second perhaps almost as big village? If Benteen had encountered hostiles on his scout, and the hostiles took off would Custer have expected Benteen to give chase, possibly going even further away from the main body of troops, or would Custer have expected Bentee to stay in contact and let the hostiles go? Beth Beth, GAC's experience at the Washita would be of a series of villages, not a sole big village. Personally he could see nothing from the CN. Benteen's immediate role would have essentially been to throw a cordon across the upper LBH valley, preventing reinforcement northwards and flight southwards. Benteen was in no position to chase anybody southwards, even had it been tactically desirable. Crook could be very close in that direction in any event, for all the 7th knew. That was another reason for GAC to cross the divide and maintain an independent command rather than risk running into Crook at the headwaters and becoming his subordinate. WO
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