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Post by fred on Oct 20, 2007 21:18:07 GMT -6
The sun rose at 4:13 a.m. on the 25th of June. From that point to the time Custer led the Seventh Cavalry to the divide, a number of events occurred. Did they find their prey? After the surise, LT Charles Varnum and his scouts looked out over Ash Creek (Reno Creek) valley and into the LBH in the far distance. The Big Horn Mountains are the last thing one sees before the sky.
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Post by mcaryf on Oct 21, 2007 3:17:12 GMT -6
The 7th Cavalry made breakfast and the smoke from their camp fires was clearly visible to the scouts at the Crows Nest.
According to Red Star "Arikara Narrative", Custer had his trumpeter sound Reveille at 8am as he left for the Crows Nest. If this is true it runs against Custer's previous instructions.
Various reports by the scouts indicate that the 7th Cavalry presence was spotted by hostiles.
Regards
Mike
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Post by crzhrs on Oct 22, 2007 8:54:09 GMT -6
Dr. Porter:
June 25: "We proceeded until four o'clock, the morning of the 25th, when we camped in a deep ravine where the Indians could not see us. In about an hour the scouts reported a large camp of Indians ahead. The command was ordered to get ready for action. Custer came to me and said: 'Porter, there is a large camp of Indians ahead, and we are going to have a great killing.' At six o'clock (a.m.) we started. It was Custer's purpose at this time to charge the Indians in a body, he supposing that our presence had not been discovered by them. In a short time the scouts reported that we had been seen by the Indians.
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Post by clw on Oct 25, 2007 6:52:48 GMT -6
from Command and General Staff College...
"At 0030 on 25 June, Custer led his soldiers out of the Busby camp toward the divide. After a slow, dusty, and disagreeable night march lasting nearly three hours, he halted his column about an hour before sunrise to cook breakfast. At 0730, Custer received a message from Varnum at the Crows Nest. Although Varnum had not personally seen signs of the Sioux village (now in the Little Bighorn valley), his Indian scouts claimed to have seen it. Unwilling to act without making his own observations, Custer and a small party left at 0800 for the Crow's Nest, while Major Reno brought the regiment forward."
"During Varnum's wait for Custer at the Crow's Nest, his scouts saw two groups of hostile Indians that appeared to notice Custer's column. Custer reached the Crow's Nest at 0900, but like Varnum, he was unable to identify any signs of the Sioux village, Varnum's Indian scouts, however, convinced Custer of its presence in the Little Bighorn valley. The scouts further argued that the column's movement had been compromised and that a stealthy approach to the village was now impossible. Custer adamantly rejected this advice while at the Crow's Nest, but his subsequent actions indicate he must have changed his mind by the time he rejoined the column at the foot of the peak."
"During Custer's absence, Major Reno had moved the column forward to a position just north of the Crow's Nest. Upon his return, Custer learned of a further threat to his force's security. During the night march, one of the pack mules had lost part of its load. The detail sent to retrieve it discovered several hostile Indians rummaging through its contents. The soldiers fired on the Indians, scattering them but not killing them. Coupled with the observations of Varnum's scouts, this latest breach of security forced Custer to discard his original plan for a stealthy approach. Instead of concealing his command throughout the day of 25 June, he would have to approach and attack the village immediately. Ironically, none of the Indians that spotted the column reported their findings to the village until after the battle, but Custer had no way of knowing that."
"At 1050, Custer gathered his officers and detailed his new plan and the organization of the column. He directed each company commander to assign one noncommissioned officer and six men to accompany the pack train. The companies would depart in the order in which they finished preparations to move. The troopers resumed their march at 1145, with Captain Frederick W. Benteen's company in the van."
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Post by erkki on Nov 24, 2007 8:30:19 GMT -6
from Command and General Staff College... "During Custer's absence, Major Reno had moved the column forward to a position just north of the Crow's Nest. " [/quote] What proof is there that a) Custer went to the divide alone, i.e., left the column at the night halt; and b) that Reno or anyone moved the column after Custer left?
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Post by fred on Nov 24, 2007 9:09:49 GMT -6
What proof is there that a) Custer went to the divide alone, i.e., left the column at the night halt; and b) that Reno or anyone moved the column after Custer left? These are exceptionally good points and I am quickly changing my views and opinions on this whole Davis Creek-to-the-divide scenario. Best wishes, Fred.
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
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Post by Gerry on Nov 5, 2008 21:58:48 GMT -6
Pvt. Peter Thompson said,"Early as it was, General Custer and two of his staff, namely Capt. Custer and Lieu. Cook, (sic) were in earnest conversation. What the subject of their conversation was no one will ever know, but it must have been of deep interest to them, for the interview lasted quite a long time......At half past six, the cook was awakened to prepare breakfast for the men, and that meal consisted simply of coffee, bacan, and hardtack......It was half past eight o'clock when we moved out of camp.....Our gait was a lively walk......and we began to follow what appeared to be a valley stretching out between two low lying ranges of hills. This dipped toward the Little Horn River. By following this valley, we were well protected by the hills on either side. Our progress was unhindered and we moved rapidly along feeling that there was something ahead of us that we must see. .....Our next resting place was in a deep depression of the valley. Custer rode some distance ahead of us and then turning to the right ascended to the highest point of the hill where he must have been abele to see a long distance. (Crow's Nest) He was not long in returning; and then the bugle was blown for the first time for a number of days. It was a call for the officers"
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Gerry
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Peter
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Post by Gerry on Nov 5, 2008 22:26:35 GMT -6
I want to pick this back up. Pvt. Peter Thompson said,"Our company was resting quite close to the place where the officers sat in council. This resting place was on a piece of ground slightly elevated above the officers' position which for the first time on the expedition, gave me an opportunity of seeing the officers all together and noting their apperances. the most noticeable among them was Captain Benteen....there were also present Yates, Reno, Custer, McDougalll, Smith, Weir, French, Moylan, Lieu. Cooke of the regiment on Custer's staff, Calhoun, MacIntosh, Varnum, Wallace, Harrington, Edgerly, Sturgis and other officers whos names I have forgotten. It would be difficult to find a finer set of officers in the service of any country. From the manner of the conversation it would seem as though Custer had discovered something that was of great importance.......In a short time the council broke up and once more we were on the move down the valley.....Water was exceedingly scarce in the valley but as we knew that the latter was short we had hopes of something better when we got out of it."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 11:35:21 GMT -6
Old thread but closest I could find to Crow's Nest activity.
When Custer left for the Crow's Nest, had he given orders to Reno to bring the command forward? A little blurry about what was happening at this time and the subsequent reports of Custer's surprise/anger that the command had been brought forward. Or am I confusing different events?
If the pack had not been lost during the night march and Varnum/Scouts not been under the impression they had been sighted by Indian Crows, would Custer have delayed his attack and recon'd further up the valley? Or put another way, did he excelerate the attack solely because they had been spotted?
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Post by chris on Feb 4, 2015 12:09:17 GMT -6
Old thread but closest I could find to Crow's Nest activity. When Custer left for the Crow's Nest, had he given orders to Reno to bring the command forward? A little blurry about what was happening at this time and the subsequent reports of Custer's surprise/anger that the command had been brought forward. Or am I confusing different events? If the pack had not been lost during the night march and Varnum/Scouts not been under the impression they had been sighted by Indian Crows, would Custer have delayed his attack and recon'd further up the valley? Or put another way, did he excelerate the attack solely because they had been spotted? Mark, I think you're asking "what if" questions along with "what was." I've never read Custer left any orders for Reno when Custer went to the Crows Nest. No doubt I'll be corrected! Best, c.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 4, 2015 12:18:55 GMT -6
Chris, Mark,
I recall no such order, but miss many thing, sometimes the t in my first name. Not a bad thread to pull up Mark. Shame we can't move it forward in list.
Regards, Tom
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Post by chris on Feb 4, 2015 12:22:29 GMT -6
Chris, Mark, I recall no such order, but miss many thing, sometimes the t in my first name. Not a bad thread to pull up Mark. Shame we can't move it forward in list. Regards, Tom You missed an "s" on "thing." Best, c.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2015 12:34:34 GMT -6
I think there is an account that Tom brought it up. I don't think Reno was in charge of anything at the time
AZ Ranger
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Post by Colt45 on Feb 4, 2015 12:34:57 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't believe Custer issued any orders to bring the command forward while he as at the Crow's Nest. In fact, I think he was quite irritated that the command had come up, I think on Tom's order. If I am wrong here, someone will post the correct facts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 13:44:32 GMT -6
Thanks.
With no evidence of a GAC order to move the command up, how would things have been altered if GAC came down from the Crows Nest and went the 30 or so minutes back to camp? This would have slowed everything down by an hour and a half or more from what we know happened. Would this have seen GAC hold the camp and send scouts out further with the intent of attacking on the 26th?
In a nutshell, was everything set in motion by Tom mistakenly moving the command forward?
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