|
Post by tubman13 on Feb 4, 2015 13:56:44 GMT -6
Excellent question, my short answer is I don't think so, but I have absolutely nothing to back it up. Never saw it discussed. One thing, was that the move the one that caused the box to be dropped on the trail? If so it helped set things in motion.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 4, 2015 14:05:03 GMT -6
I suspect it was Tom Custer, and well within his authority as the senior officer on duty with the regimental headquarters. von Mellintin and Westphal did the same thing during the Crusader battle in 41. Rommel was just as pissed as Custer was until he looked at the situation map, then like Custer, said no more. Tom Custer, if he was the one, made the right call. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe that one action is anyway connected with the other, that being moving the attack time forward. Custer was still the decision maker and he was the one who decided to launch an immediate attack.
Hindsight tells us that the discovery of the ration box and the other sightings were a non-event in terms of reporting presence or having advanced knowledge of presence.
Moving the attack time forward was a judgment call, based upon the best information then available. People can argue about it until the infernal regions develop a light coat of frost. It does not make any difference. It was the means, methods, and conduct of the attack itself where criticism should be leveled. It stunk.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Feb 4, 2015 15:10:34 GMT -6
I believe as well that it was Tom who brought it up and that Custer was not happy. I can't remember if I have ever read an explaination on why Tom brought it forward. Did it have to do with the lost crate of supplies or is that when the crate was lost?
Beth
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 16:35:07 GMT -6
I believe as well that it was Tom who brought it up and that Custer was not happy. I can't remember if I have ever read an explaination on why Tom brought it forward. Did it have to do with the lost crate of supplies or is that when the crate was lost? Beth The crate was lost on the night march I believe. It does seem odd that Tom would have moved the entire command up without an order and without full knowledge of what was ahead. GAC obviously wanted to see for himself before acting otherwise he would have ordered it. It may have forced GACs hand into speeding things up without further recon.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 4, 2015 16:39:49 GMT -6
Supposedly it was because of the lost box, which I think contained rations. The soldiers who returned however were not after the box, but rather personal gear left behind. As they were on their way, they came across Indians pilfering the box, and the assumption that the regiment was detected was based upon that incident. As it turned out the event was never reported. No one had any way of knowing that though, so Tom acted on that information as it was his duty to do in the absence of the commander.
Bringing the regiment forward was a so what. It did not mean anything one way or the other. It was the potential discovery that drove the train to launch an ahead of time attack. Had he not brought the regiment forward it is still likely that an attack time would have been brought forward. Unimportant event, unrelated to the decision.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 4, 2015 16:50:05 GMT -6
About being odd Scarface I completely disagree. Since Valley Forge and von Steuben we have sought to instill in our leaders, both officer and NCO the need to act in the absence of orders or in spite of previously issued orders should there occur an unforeseen event. Tom Custer was doing his job, nothing more. He was senior man in the headquarters. He saw fit to act on new information, unknown to his brother.
Custer made the decision to attack. His failure to reconnoiter is his failure. His dispositions were his failure. He could just as easily said No we will attack tomorrow and spend the rest of this day in preparation. Those Indians were not going anywhere. For one reason they, were they completely aware of Custer's force would not wish to be caught on the march. If anything they would attack. What is amazing to me is that Custer thinking they were warned adopted an approach march formation, that would anticipate attack, and when that attack did not develop as he got nearer to the villages, must have understood that they were not warned at all. It is a most logical assumption. Advance warning would mean being attacked as Custer came down Ash Creek.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Feb 4, 2015 18:03:21 GMT -6
I think Custer's reported annoyance at the move had more to do with the fact he liked to be in charge and make the moves and didn't totally appreciate someone taking an initiative beyond himself. I believve that if had been anyone besides his brother, he would have reacted similiar to his reaction to Reno's Rosebud scout.
Why though would Tom move everyone? Was it so they could react quickly to whatever brother George decided to do? Was it a better position?
Beth
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 18:14:43 GMT -6
About being odd Scarface I completely disagree. Since Valley Forge and von Steuben we have sought to instill in our leaders, both officer and NCO the need to act in the absence of orders or in spite of previously issued orders should there occur an unforeseen event. Tom Custer was doing his job, nothing more. He was senior man in the headquarters. He saw fit to act on new information, unknown to his brother. Custer made the decision to attack. His failure to reconnoiter is his failure. His dispositions were his failure. He could just as easily said No we will attack tomorrow and spend the rest of this day in preparation. Those Indians were not going anywhere. For one reason they, were they completely aware of Custer's force would not wish to be caught on the march. If anything they would attack. What is amazing to me is that Custer thinking they were warned adopted an approach march formation, that would anticipate attack, and when that attack did not develop as he got nearer to the villages, must have understood that they were not warned at all. It is a most logical assumption. Advance warning would mean being attacked as Custer came down Ash Creek. I agree about officers being able to make decisions based on new information, but in this case the pack wasn't reported missing until well after the command had moved out.
|
|
|
Post by welshofficer on Feb 4, 2015 18:23:05 GMT -6
I believe as well that it was Tom who brought it up and that Custer was not happy. I can't remember if I have ever read an explaination on why Tom brought it forward. Did it have to do with the lost crate of supplies or is that when the crate was lost? Beth The crate was lost on the night march I believe. It does seem odd that Tom would have moved the entire command up without an order and without full knowledge of what was ahead. GAC obviously wanted to see for himself before acting otherwise he would have ordered it. It may have forced GACs hand into speeding things up without further recon. SF,
The tactical options for the 25th and 26th get far more interesting if you remove the tiring night march on the 24th altogether...that was the catalyst....
The scouts, with or without GAC, proceed to the CN. But the main column of the regiment remains back at Busby.
No hardtack lost on the night march, no panic over discovery early on the 25th....
WO
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 4, 2015 19:25:16 GMT -6
Scarface I am not at all sure about that. I will look this evening to see what Godfrey has to say and report back.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 19:28:47 GMT -6
Scarface I am not at all sure about that. I will look this evening to see what Godfrey has to say and report back. Sounds good. Be interested in getting it clarified. Thxs
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Feb 4, 2015 21:38:30 GMT -6
I read only Godfrey because I recalled that he mentioned the incident in the Century Magazine article. It is not a clear as it could be but it definitely states that Tom Custer received the report while his brother was away, and told him about it when he got back. This was the only time, his brother being away that Tom could have ordered a move or any move could have been made without GAC knowledge and permission. I conclude therefore that the move was made after the report of the Indians and the bread box were made. I see no other reason to move absent that information.
Just seems that one event would follow the reporting of the other.
|
|
shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
|
Post by shaw on Feb 4, 2015 22:39:20 GMT -6
Custer wasn't tired. Being the narcissist he was, I believe that he didn't really worry too much about whether his men were tired or not. Custer was only too happy to move ahead and attack. He wanted this to be a 7th Cavalry show. Waiting for Terry and Gibbon would not be something he preferred. Every day of delay brought Terry's command closer to the village. In a way Custer had two enemies. The NA's and the chance that he would have to share the victory with Terry and Gibbon. So when the chance came he moved ahead.
Please, recognize that this is my opinion.
I've stood up on the Crow's Nest at dawn and at noon. You look down at the line of trees where the village was and you can't see much. I believe the scouts saw what they needed to, but Custer couldn't see it nor could Varnum. A simple advanced scout would have been in order. A man like Custer didn't seem to want to or take the time.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Feb 4, 2015 23:00:20 GMT -6
Custer wasn't tired. Being the narcissist he was, I believe that he didn't really worry too much about whether his men were tired or not. Custer was only too happy to move ahead and attack. He wanted this to be a 7th Cavalry show. Waiting for Terry and Gibbon would not be something he preferred. Every day of delay brought Terry's command closer to the village. In a way Custer had two enemies. The NA's and the chance that he would have to share the victory with Terry and Gibbon. So when the chance came he moved ahead. Please, recognize that this is my opinion. I've stood up on the Crow's Nest at dawn and at noon. You look down at the line of trees where the village was and you can't see much. I believe the scouts saw what they needed to, but Custer couldn't see it nor could Varnum. A simple advanced scout would have been in order. A man like Custer didn't seem to want to or take the time. One thing I learned from rocketry is that it's a lot easier to spot something when you know what you are looking for. The scouts could spot the signs of the village and its size because they knew what to look for but unfortunately they didn't seem to be able to translate that knowledge effectively to Custer and Varnum. Beth
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 5:07:35 GMT -6
I read only Godfrey because I recalled that he mentioned the incident in the Century Magazine article. It is not a clear as it could be but it definitely states that Tom Custer received the report while his brother was away, and told him about it when he got back. This was the only time, his brother being away that Tom could have ordered a move or any move could have been made without GAC knowledge and permission. I conclude therefore that the move was made after the report of the Indians and the bread box were made. I see no other reason to move absent that information. Just seems that one event would follow the reporting of the other. The box was left behind at Halt 1 and reported missing by Curtiss some 20 minutes after the command left Halt 1 in the direction on the Crows Nest. The pack was found at Halt 1 with Indians rifling through it.
|
|