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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 27, 2017 9:48:15 GMT -6
Hi AZ There were no domestic drills after Custer decided they may have been observed and moved out. He divided the regiment in order to move to contact. McDougall knew that they were moving to contact and in order for the rear guard to get there in time to join the fight he needed to keep the pack train moving. So do you think that Custer thought the pack train would move faster than when he ordered it to follow him down Reno Creek. What part of moving to contact do you consider domestic drills?They all knew they were moving to contact from the day one [as per Reno's recce] I don't have a clue what Custer thought but when the pack train became aware [no thanks to Benteen]that contact had been made the configuration of the train changed and packs were closed up.
So can you tell us why the pack train went to where Benteen was located rather than following Reno's trail to Ford A?Let me guess....Mathey saw men on Reno hill and a lot of smoke and took it to be an engagement? Was it not Benteen's responsibility to ensure the packs took the same route? So again why are you against communication? Is there anything more important than sounding the alarm? Cheers Richard Richard
I think you are in error if you think the march to just past Busby was movement to contact. Custer could have followed Terry's orders and continued up the Rosebud. Up to deciding to move up Davis Creek the 7th was following a march regime. They set a camp site and waited for the pack train to move into camp. The horses were grazed at a distance and moved closer to camp at night. None of these activities took place after the division to battalions.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Feb 27, 2017 10:27:33 GMT -6
Hi AZ
I think you are in error if you think the march to just past Busby was movement to contact[/i Well Crook was 30 miles out from the Village when he was hit ....bet he was not in movement to contact either.
But the issue here is communication by Benteen to the packs. Why did he not tell the packs that contact had been made with a BIG village and why did he not ensure that the packs followed his route?
And again why do you make a case for non communication on the battle field? Cheers Richard
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Post by dave on Feb 27, 2017 10:58:50 GMT -6
Richard
I have tried to answer your post but I seem to have written an espistle. I hope I was able to express myself in a cogent manner but realize much of what I have posted stems from the expertise of Montrose, Fred, AZ and others who I have sourced for my comments. Always steal from the best is what I say!
Your belief that Benteen was “obliged” to communicate with Custer and go to him if possible confuses me greatly. Neither Reno or Benteen had any idea of Custer's location or the status of his command. You seem to expect a superhuman effort from Reno and especially Benteen to find Custer and go to his aid. Reno's command had heard some firing from Custer's battalion while they were in the valley but saw no sign of Custer when on the bluffs.
The confusion and the stress existing in Reno's command must have been tangible and Benteen knew he had to take control and sort this mess out. All the caterwauling does not change the situation Benteen encountered and the choices he made on the fly without time and the necessary data he needed to make informed decisions. The man did the best he could and fortunately for the 3 battalions left he chose wisely
There was an effort, halfhearted at best, by Weir to find Custer and Benteen followed. They soon ran into more Indians than they could handled and returned to the position on the bluffs. While atop the peak soon to be name for Weir they saw nothing of Custer. Since we know of Reno's somewhat addled mental condition, I can understand Benteen's reluctance to obey his recall signal. He chose to not make an incident over Reno's behavior and just ignored him as he was a combat veteran and believed he knew better at that time. No excuses for his behavior are offered just reasoning for it.
“However on another day Benteen's halting could have resulted in such a disaster.” I fail to see how this statement makes any sense? Each and every engagement has different variables and you can not judge his actions in an action that did not take place. I use the analogy of a football game to understand his position as I have no military experience. Again I will profess that Benteen's professional behavior that day, night and nest day enabled the command to survive till Terry arrived. As Dark Cloud used to postulate no one really did well that day but Benteen did the best.
Benteen was as we say “as rough as a cob” but he was a professional soldier with years of service including combat experience. Benteen seemed to be an honorable man as he never publicly commented on Reno's behavior or attempted to make any money from this tragedy. Goldin published his personal correspondence but that hardly qualifies for public criticizing of Reno and his actions, does it? Goldin was a proven liar and could have edited Benteen's letters to his own benefit or left some letters out of the collection.
I have run over my allotted time and space and seek your forbearance. I look forward to your response. Regards Dave
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 27, 2017 14:58:48 GMT -6
<While atop the peak soon to be name for Weir they saw nothing of Custer>
There were numerous accounts of soldiers (Weir's Advance) witnessing masses of Indians shouting at "black" objects on the ground. Many thought it was Indians hunting and shooting at buffalo (HUH?!?!?) while others felt it was something far more troubling. How could soldiers who had reinforced Reno and knew Reno had been under heavy attack think Indians would be hunting for buffalo while large numbers of soldiers were trying to kill them?
I think it was mostly soldiers trying to cover their behinds thinking there was nothing to worry about and Custer was OK until they saw hordes of Indians charging their way. Then it was every man for themselves with gung-ho Weir turning tail and running with the only sane officer (Godfrey) having sense enough to order skirmishers our to blunt the warrior's charge.
Too many officers/soldiers trying to explain away why the command suffered such a devastating defeat and in hindsight knowing it would be best to try to explain away their actions based on lack of orders, knowledge of what Custer was doing or intended to do (mostly true) and then looking for excuses to explain their actions.
When you win everything worked out fine and everyone wants credit . . . when you lose you point fingers at others, cover up mistakes, or give half-assed explainations or excuses as to what happened.
Nothing has changed since then when things go wrong!
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Post by wild on Feb 27, 2017 15:54:24 GMT -6
Hi Dave And thank you for your most coprehensive reply.
“However on another day Benteen's halting could have resulted in such a disaster.” I fail to see how this statement makes any sense? Each and every engagement has different variables and you can not judge his actions in an action that did not take place
Let me reduce this issue to a single principle..... An operational unit under orders will not diviate from those orders unless by not doing so it jeopardises the mission. If orders could be ignored for every variable armies would not function. Our Ford D scenario is predicated on Benteen arriving with 5 companies and reserve ammo. Would Custer have undertaken the Ford D adventure without being confident that his orders would have been carried out? On that day time saved Benteen's bacon ....his betrayal came too late to harm Custer.
Cheers Richard
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Post by dave on Feb 27, 2017 16:26:33 GMT -6
czrhrs How would Benteen and the others know what they saw from Weir's Peak was the destruction of Custer's command if they did not know where GAC went? I honestly don't know what to make of their statements and am unsure if they knew. Perhaps you are right and if so, so be it. I have never attempted to see an activity 3 miles away with the naked eye and can not speak to that aspect of this debate.
Wild I have no idea what Custer was intending by moving north away from Reno, Benteen and the pack train but montrose among others have explained it was a death wish. To insist that Benteen had to follow an operational unit order without thinking or using his experience and knowledge is not practicable. He could in no way jeopardize the mission as it was scrubbed by GAC and his splitting his command into 4 parts and his own battalion into smaller pieces?
AZ and Fred have demonstrated and written that Benteen did not dawdle. Cooke's note/order, still being debated almost 141 years later, was incomprehensible and contradictory. I can only imagine that having seen the number of hostile forces that any officer would be very hesitant to go barreling off to Ford D. Surely you see that the circumstances changed the nature of the orders? Betrayal is a serious charge and should not be said lightly.
Wild I honestly regret that I am unable to accept your position but enjoy the discussion. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Feb 27, 2017 17:15:59 GMT -6
Hi Dave To insist that Benteen had to follow an operational unit order without thinking or using his experience and knowledge is not practicable You base decisions on information ,Benteen had none and made no effort to get information. You have to allow Custer the same latitude you allow Benteen. He was a major general every bit as experienced as Benteen . And he issued an order and Benteen had no reason to disobey. What did Benteen base his decision on? Custer could look after himself, Custer was watering his horses somewhere,Custer was dead ? How did Benteen come to his decision to withdraw 5 companies from the battle ?
Always a pleasure Richard
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Post by herosrest on Feb 27, 2017 18:19:56 GMT -6
If anyone is confused or ignorant about why the pack train and Regiment's rearguard marched onto the bluffs east of LBH river rather than following Custer's orders - it was because Reno sent Hare to McDougall and Mathey with orders for them to join him, on Reno Hill. Hare carried Reno's orders to McDougall and Mathey. The thing developed this way, which no one can deny and none can deny because it happened this way. As HDK was making a staggered (and staggering) movement towards LBH valley from the head of a small stream which is thought of today as a morass and was either the first or second watering halt undertaken in Reno's Ash Creek by HDK; mules arrived and a couple of the more unruly and thirsty little blighters barreled into the water as they do when thirsty in that rampant way. Now, Godfrey, Edward S. First Lt. Company K was able to assist the men of his pack mule detail to extricate their pair of moribund jack asses from the muddiness of the quagmire now named as a or the morass. You see, whilst Kanipe was meeting Benteen then Godfrey and his Company K were watching and pulling their mules at a or the morass. With Weir pressing on to Ford A, remember that Edgerley believed had Reno held the timber 10 minutes longer then he would have been there with Weir to rescue \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\AGM and Reno. Benteen actually overviewed the retreat from the valley and left information on a sketch of the valley showing where he understood a skirmish line deployed and fought to the death. Of meeting Kanipe, Benteen told that he told Kanipe that he (Benteen) thought that McDougall and the pack mules were at least or about seven miles to the rear although Godfrey was in fact only just left behind and in fact pulling mired mules out of a wet boggy morass which they had charged into to become stuck. In fact it may not have been that they were jammed up stuck - it may have been that stubborn mule stuck of i'm thirsty and enjoying this horridly horrid water. I'm not moving. HDK moved on Ford A, saw the retreat under way in the valley and moved to join the retreat on the bluffs. With the battalions of Reno and Benteen united on what really should have been named Godfrey Hill after Rector Hare; he. Lt. Hare was sent to Mathey and McDougall to make sure that they knew R&B were on the bluffs. The pack train was ordered to the bluffs by Reno, with the message which he had Hare carry to Mathey and McDougall from Reno Hill. Reno sent Hare to order the pack train to join Reno on the bluffs which directly..... (to be continued) If you get bored, try some Homer - Homer.
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Post by dave on Feb 27, 2017 19:16:45 GMT -6
Richard You are insisting that Benteen be held to an impossible standard, your's. He made the decision to remain with Reno and await the arrival of the pack train. A half-hearted advance was made as far as Weir's Point, about 1 mile from the bluff's position, when it was decided the hostiles were too strong and a retreat ordered. Survival was the goal.
I honestly can not understand your position and doubt that we will agree and that is fine. Discussions are the food of enlightenment and we are providing opposing views for consumption though mine is very low in nutriments! Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Feb 28, 2017 1:09:20 GMT -6
I honestly can not understand your position and doubt that we will agree and that is fine. Discussions are the food of enlightenment and we are providing opposing views for consumption though mine is very low in nutriments! Good man Dave ...all respect.
You are insisting that Benteen be held to an impossible standard, your's Not my standard but the military standard. And to enforce it they sometimes shoot those who are less than "enthusiastic".
He made the decision to remain with Reno and await the arrival of the pack train He was not concerned about the pack train. The packtrain could have wandered into the valley at ford A for all Benteen cared.
I honestly can not understand your position and doubt that we will agree and that is fine. If the battle was a one off affair fought under survival rules then all hail Benteen.But it was not it was fought under military mission rules and that give rise to interminable disagreements. My opinion is that Benteen was on a major sulk brought on by being slapped down by Custer and because of the Elliot incident. His execution of the left oblique is plain sabotage and as for looking after the packs ..... And then he sees Reno's defeated troops and says I knew it, god damn it that man will get us all killed, enough of this sh1te and he just sat down. I think the board should stop trying to defend Benteen via military standards and agree that humanity saved the remainder of the command Always a pleasure Richard
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 28, 2017 8:36:15 GMT -6
<czrhrs How would Benteen and the others know what they saw from Weir's Peak was the destruction of Custer's command if they did not know where GAC went?>
It would be hard to believe it could be nothing else. However, once back on Reno Hill there was discussion as to where was Custer? Some said he had won his victory and went looking for the nearest telegraph office to proclaim his trophy. Other's said he abandoned the command like he did with Elliott. Human nature wouldn't allow the men to think Custer had been defeated let alone wiped out.
However there were a number of accounts which you can find in Custer in 76 (Walter Camp's Notes on the Custer Fight) including George Wylie who stated they saw many horsemen over over the distant ridge with guidons flying. He heard Weir say: "That is Custer over there." He also heard Sergt. Flanagan say to Weir "I think those are Indians" . . . Weir changed his mind about going to help Custer.
Luther Hare stated he thought Custer was fighting them (Indians)
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Post by dave on Feb 28, 2017 10:16:05 GMT -6
Richard 1) Benteen cared for the pack train as he had been ordered to bring the packs, twice with the PS, by Cooke. He stated that he kept his command between the hostiles and the pack train to insure its safety.
2) I agree that Elliot's fate could have been in the back of Benteen's mind and perhaps he was miffed about being sent off "valley hunting ad infinitum," but that can hardly be construed as sabotage. I am not aware of any evidence available that shows Benteen did not perform his left oblique in a proper military fashion, is there l have missed?
3) Your statement: "I think the board should stop trying to defend Benteen via military standards and agree that humanity saved the remainder of the command " I admit to being befuddled as to what that comment means. Perhaps you could go into further details? Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Feb 28, 2017 10:44:31 GMT -6
Hi Dave Benteen cared for the pack train as he had been ordered to bring the packs, twice with the PS, by Cooke. He stated that he kept his command between the hostiles and the pack train to insure its safety. The train was 7 miles back the trail, strung out over 3 miles and they were approching the scene of Reno's defeat. Benteen failed to pass back any info [vital]re the situation. At a distance of 7 miles Benteen could not have prevented an attack on the pack train.
I am not aware of any evidence available that shows Benteen did not perform his left oblique in a proper military fashion, is there l have missed?Geographical evidence.See reply to Colonel.
"I think the board should stop trying to defend Benteen via military standards and agree that humanity saved the remainder of the command " I admit to being befuddled as to what that comment means. Perhaps you could go into further details? Simply put.....the army does it by the numbers , civilians do it by emotion. 99 Times out of a hundred the numbers will win.Here at the LBH emotion was the order of the day. I condemn Benteen because he failed to apply the numbers. Best Wishes Richard
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Post by wild on Feb 28, 2017 14:48:56 GMT -6
This is my last word on the issue of Benteen. If you allow Benteen to set the standard,to set the tone,to set the bar,to make of him a hero as this board has done, you will end up with a military which will cease fighting when it has suffered 6% casualties.
My thank to all who have debated with me , I know it was done honestly and sincerely. Best Wishes Richard
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Post by benteen on Feb 28, 2017 15:28:06 GMT -6
This is my last word on the issue of Benteen. If you allow Benteen to set the standard,to set the tone,to set the bar,to make of him a hero as this board has done, you will end up with a military which will cease fighting when it has suffered 6% casualties. My thank to all who have debated with me , I know it was done honestly and sincerely. Best Wishes Richard Richard, I dont agree with your first 2 sentences, but you final one was well said. Good job. Be Well Dan
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