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Post by wild on Feb 21, 2017 17:38:34 GMT -6
Hi Dan and AZ Communication is the sine qua non of systems. Without it cohesion ,organision, command and control break down. Start by leaving out routine messages and where does it stop? Benteen did not know what message Kanipe was carrying. And with hind sight we know that the messages differed.he did not know the message was delivered. Why were the packs mentioned twice in the message ? was this pointless? No it expressed the urgency of the situation . Even if Kanipe's message and Martins message were similar both should have been sent back. Benteen dismisses Kanipe, does not even enquire how thing are going up front. And then Martin's message is not sent back. Benteen was on a "work to rule". you are familiar with that term?] Using work to rule you can obey orders to the letter and muck the system up. All those local adjustments and extras and minor alterations , going the extra yard which you expect from a team player were missing from Benteen's day's work. Look at the pattern ......action after action is questionable .You can defend one or two but a half a dozen ? Cheers guys Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 21, 2017 19:33:43 GMT -6
Hi Dan and AZ Communication is the sine qua non of systems. Without it cohesion ,organision, command and control break down. Start by leaving out routine messages and where does it stop? Benteen did not know what message Kanipe was carrying. And with hind sight we know that the messages differed.he did not know the message was delivered. Why were the packs mentioned twice in the message ? was this pointless? No it expressed the urgency of the situation . Even if Kanipe's message and Martins message were similar both should have been sent back. Benteen dismisses Kanipe, does not even enquire how thing are going up front. And then Martin's message is not sent back. Benteen was on a "work to rule". you are familiar with that term?] Using work to rule you can obey orders to the letter and muck the system up. All those local adjustments and extras and minor alterations , going the extra yard which you expect from a team player were missing from Benteen's day's work. Look at the pattern ......action after action is questionable .You can defend one or two but a half a dozen ? Cheers guys Richard I think Fred answered this. Neither Mathey nor McDougall needed to be told where to go. I think the preponderance of shod prints and gunfire gave them a hint. Furthermore, Luke Hare came back for some ammo packs and told Mathey precisely what was cooking.
Best wishes, Fred.
The pack train and rear guard follow the main body by default and don't need an order to do that since it is SOP. The officers know they are moving to contact so speed is understood. Regards Steve
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dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by dgfred on Feb 21, 2017 20:44:51 GMT -6
So no need of a note from Custer (if Reno isn't smashed up) the train would follow behind anyway? They would hurry too if they heard the gunfire.
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Post by fred on Feb 21, 2017 21:29:24 GMT -6
So no need of a note from Custer (if Reno isn't smashed up) the train would follow behind anyway? They would hurry too if they heard the gunfire. First of all, we do not know if Custer was aware of Kanipe's trip. There is a lingering question whether or not Kanipe simply shirked out of the formation and used the "hurry packs" message as an excuse. So there is no assurance anyone knew. If and when Kanipe was dispatched, the valley fight had not even begun: Reno was still in the process of dismounting and forming his skirmish line. The note, as such, came only about 14 minutes later, after Kanipe was supposedly sent back. So why bother sending another message for the packs when Custer had not even fired a shot yet? As for the packs "hurrying," how do you think that would have been accomplished? Mathey had done this before, so a mule-pack train was not new to him. A pack train of this nature-- some 175 mules-- generally walked at about 3 MPH. Hustling them would equate to about 4 MPH. At speeds even that slow, the question becomes, How do you move them faster and still control them? Custer would most assuredly know this which brings into question even more Kanipe's "mission." If you notice, the note says nothing about hurrying the packs; it simply states, Bring them. Also, let's not forget Cooke's earlier admonishment about making dust as the command-- including the packs-- moved down Reno Creek. Of course by the time Reno was dismounting, dust on Reno Creek was no longer an issue, other than the difficulty of slowing down, then speeding up 175 ornery mules, most of which were not too used to carrying packs: most of them were wagon mules: "leaders," "swings," and "wheelers." Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Feb 22, 2017 4:26:02 GMT -6
Hi AZ You miss the point yet again. Benteen knew the packs had received orders but did not know what were those orders. Martin's message could have been a change of those orders for all Benteen knew. To ensure that everyone was operating under the same orders he was obliged to send Martin's back. I can think of a dozen orders Kanipe could have been carrying which could have been 180 degrees different from Martin's. What if Kanipe had been a fraud and had told McDougal that he was to corral the packs and just send forward the ammo? As regards the speed of the packs there is a stop option. Martin's message would ensure that there was no coffee breaks.
Some of you guys are Marines. You probably did arse wiping by the numbers WHYBecause you leave nothing to chance. Benteen left the packs to their own devices he took a chance. And why did he take a chance because he had been sent out into badlands on a wild goose chase and now Custer had made him responsible for the packs. Colonel Benteen was having none of it. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 22, 2017 12:11:21 GMT -6
Hi AZ You miss the point yet again. Benteen knew the packs had received orders but did not know what were those orders. Martin's message could have been a change of those orders for all Benteen knew. To ensure that everyone was operating under the same orders he was obliged to send Martin's back. I can think of a dozen orders Kanipe could have been carrying which could have been 180 degrees different from Martin's. What if Kanipe had been a fraud and had told McDougal that he was to corral the packs and just send forward the ammo? As regards the speed of the packs there is a stop option. Martin's message would ensure that there was no coffee breaks. Some of you guys are Marines. You probably did arse wiping by the numbers WHYBecause you leave nothing to chance. Benteen left the packs to their own devices he took a chance. And why did he take a chance because he had been sent out into badlands on a wild goose chase and now Custer had made him responsible for the packs. Colonel Benteen was having none of it. Cheers Richard Richard You miss the point. When moving to contact the rear guard follows the main body. The deviations would require an order to change that. The speed of the entire pack train is controlled by the slowest mules and how far they were willing to let the length spread out. There is nothing in the Martin note that changes anything from what is expected of a rear guard and pack train. If Custer had told Benteen to park the pack train in a safe location and bring only the ammunition mules that would require Benteen to make contact. Benteen clearly explained that he thought it would be better to move a battalion forward at a speed faster than the slowest mule. Doing so prevented Reno's remaining soldier from being destroyed don't you think? What Benteen knew is that the Indians across the river would have to get through him to attack the pack train. That fighting if it were to occur would have taken place further up Reno Creek. The basic difference between you and I in my opinion is that you think the pack train would not follow the main body and that it was not moving as fast as could with limitations set by the slower mules.Marines would think every Marine is doing the best that they can do. Any Marine if assigned to a pack train would be moving as fast they could so they could get in fight. Semper Fi do or Die comes to mind. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Feb 22, 2017 16:43:15 GMT -6
Hi AZ First off the train is operating under orders which Benteen [now director of the train] does not know about. This must be rectified. Secondly contact has been made with the enemy, thus the train must be informed and furnished with all relevant intell. I think BIG VILLAGE BE QUICK BRING PACKS X2 is intell of the utmost importance.What would it cost to pass it back? We see a short time later Benteen's failure to even attempt to get word to Custer that Reno is defeated and that he has halted all forward movement of his battalion and packs. Intell will not handicap a command ,lack of it can have dire consequences. Best Regards Richard
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Post by wild on Feb 22, 2017 16:54:49 GMT -6
These two points AZ
Benteen clearly explained that he thought it would be better to move a battalion forward at a speed faster than the slowest mule. Doing so prevented Reno's remaining soldier from being destroyed don't you think? A messenger to the pack train would accomplish just as much as a battalion.
The basic difference between you and I in my opinion is that you think the pack train would not follow the main body and that it was not moving as fast as could with limitations set by the slower mules Not at all . The issue is communication and the significance of Benteen's failure so to do at vital points in the battle. Again one might accept excuses for one or two failures but an entire pattern of indifference is a horse of a different colour. Regards Richard
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Post by Bruce Robert on Feb 22, 2017 17:04:30 GMT -6
It would seem Benteen is getting the "Reno" treatment. Challenge every action he did or didn't make based upon what we now know.
But based upon what was known at that time, Benteen was following orders in a relatively reasonable manner. And what might seem like mistakes are only such when looked at after the fact.
Benteen may have been many things, but I see nothing to suggest he was shirking his duty, nor trying to undermine Custer.
He is operating with little overall knowledge of the battle; we have an overview/afterview he did not. He must be judged based upon the time and place, not the morning after.
Regards, Bruce
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2017 18:45:27 GMT -6
It would seem Benteen is getting the "Reno" treatment. Challenge every action he did or didn't make based upon what we now know.
But based upon what was known at that time, Benteen was following orders in a relatively reasonable manner. And what might seem like mistakes are only such when looked at after the fact.
Benteen may have been many things, but I see nothing to suggest he was shirking his duty, nor trying to undermine Custer.
He is operating with little overall knowledge of the battle; we have an overview/afterview he did not. He must be judged based upon the time and place, not the morning after. Extremely well said. It appears to me you have a good understanding of the battle and what went on, as well as what should have been done. Nicely done. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 22, 2017 19:34:23 GMT -6
... you ignore Godfrey's comments. No translation required. Godfrey wasn't there. Plus, he left behind no comments about any division of command at or beyond Calhoun Hill. That was the issue. Try to get your facts and context straight. < G > Best wishes, Fred. Good point, everyone who was there died.
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Feb 23, 2017 2:38:31 GMT -6
Hi Bruce
But based upon what was known at that time, Benteen was following orders in a relatively reasonable manner. And what might seem like mistakes are only such when looked at after the fact. What was known by Benteen [at the time] was that the advanced units had made contact with a large village and that the situation was urgent and that Benteen's battalion plus packs were required immediately. Benteen now directing the packs failed to pass this intell to the units it concerned.
The pack train was the most vulnerable element of the regiment. It was the slowest and naturally would be isolated and trailing some miles behind the regiment, probably spread out over a mile. In possession of Benteen's intell it would have been closed up with the escort positioning itself to best effect.
There is a principle here ; communication is vital , no excuse can be made for not passing intell back the line.
Cheers Richard
PS He is operating with little overall knowledge of the battle; we have an overview/afterview he did not. He must be judged based upon the time and place, not the morning after. Your case is diminished by not posting an example or two.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 23, 2017 7:26:54 GMT -6
These two points AZ Benteen clearly explained that he thought it would be better to move a battalion forward at a speed faster than the slowest mule. Doing so prevented Reno's remaining soldier from being destroyed don't you think?A messenger to the pack train would accomplish just as much as a battalion. Kanipe was thought to have delivered a message. What is you impression that Benteen knew from Kanipe before he told him to go to pack train. The basic difference between you and I in my opinion is that you think the pack train would not follow the main body and that it was not moving as fast as could with limitations set by the slower mulesNot at all . The issue is communication and the significance of Benteen's failure so to do at vital points in the battle. Again one might accept excuses for one or two failures but an entire pattern of indifference is a horse of a different colour. Regards Richard First you create your so called "failures" than you suggest there was to many of them. I don't agree that there were "failures" so there can not be to many of them in my opinion. I think part of the problem is that since it was not a Benteen court of inquiry they would not be looking at his decision making other than how it related to Reno and Reno's decision making. Remember when Benteen was asked about his relationship with Custer which would imply the indifference factor you speak of that the court stopped the line of questioning. That means they would not focus in what Benteen did in his decision making.
He gave his answer to what he did in regards to the pack train and it was left at that.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 23, 2017 8:37:11 GMT -6
Richard
From the RCOI
Kanipe
A mile or so from that tepee, I met a Sergeant coming back with instructions to the commanding officer of the pack train to "Hurry up the packs'. I told him the pack train, I thought, was about 7 miles back and he could take the order back as I had nothing to do with that; that Captain McDougall was in charge of the pack train and would attend to the order.
So clearly Benteen knew the content of the verbal order. So that should negate one of your "failures". Benteen knew that Kanipe was delivering a message to "Hurry Up" the pack train.
Now Martin
Q. At that point where you met Trumpeter Martin, can you state how far it was from the Little Big Horn River?
A. It was about 2 miles from where Maj. Reno first crossed.
Q. How far was it from that tepee?
A. It was about 2 miles from the tepee that I met Martin,
Q. Did you then know whose trail you, were following?
A. I did not. I will state here that Trumpeter Martin, after giving me that note, I asked him about this village. He said the Indians were all skedaddling, therefore there was less necessity for me going back for the packs.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Feb 23, 2017 14:48:13 GMT -6
Hi AZ So clearly Benteen knew the content of the verbal order. So that should negate one of your "failures". Benteen knew that Kanipe was delivering a message to "Hurry Up" the pack train. Granted but the order contained more than that. It had instructions as how to navagate and gave permission to jettison loose packs. And there is an issue as to Kanipes credibility. The military system ordains that you obey the last order. Thus because Benteen did not to see fit inform the packs of the changes, they were operating under Kanipe's version not martin's version. This muddies the water causing confusion. I will state here that Trumpeter Martin, after giving me that note, I asked him about this village. He said the Indians were all skedaddling, therefore there was less necessity for me going back for the packs. Are you suggesting that verbals from a non English speaking trooper take precedence over the orders of the commanding officer? And as it turned out Martin's advice was totally wrong. And if the packs were making all speed why did Benteen say that Hare had been sent to hurry them up? Benteen states that it was his duty to bring up the packs .He patiently did not, they came up under their own steam. Cheers Richard
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