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Post by wild on Feb 28, 2017 16:34:07 GMT -6
Best Wishes Dan Richard
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Post by dave on Feb 28, 2017 20:53:09 GMT -6
Richard What will our next debate topic be?
Was Reno's performance in the valley and timber unfairly judged by history due to his subsequent behavior after the battle? Did Reno make the most of a bad situation? Or not? Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 1, 2017 1:50:28 GMT -6
Hi Dave Reno's position in the valley was impossible. First off, cavalry are unsuited to a horse fight and outnumbered cavalry on foot are a military joke. The skirmish line was no more than a tactic with which to break contact. All Custer's units because of the numbers business were outflanked from the get go. Reno's skirmish line just could not hold its ground and although the timber offered some respite it was only going to be a matter of time before the Indians figured it. His position now unsupported was untenable and his only recourse was a no frills flight. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 1, 2017 5:50:45 GMT -6
Hi AZ I think you are in error if you think the march to just past Busby was movement to contact[/i Well Crook was 30 miles out from the Village when he was hit ....bet he was not in movement to contact either.
That is a result of Indians on offense so I don't get your point. One difference is that Crook parked the supply train and had lots of Indians on his side.
But the issue here is communication by Benteen to the packs. Why did he not tell the packs that contact had been made with a BIG village and why did he not ensure that the packs followed his route?
Because Kanipe told Benteen that he was delivering the message and nothing in the Martin note changed anything. Benteen had two choices. Be Quick or Bring Packs. It is easy to understand that the packs were safe with Benteen between the Big Village and the pack train in Reno Creek. Once Benteen turns to the bluffs he waits for the pack train to come up.
And again why do you make a case for non communication on the battle field? Cheers Richard
Richard
The pack train and rear guard are to follow Custer by default. Benteen is on the same route only a short distance ahead. The pack train turned to go up on the bluffs. Hare was sent to bring some ammunition for his battalion. Nothing could be done by way of delaying Benteen to escort the pack train to improve what happened. There was more communication from Custer to the pack train then there was to Reno in the valley. How about letting Reno and Benteen know that Custer was not going to follow the advance guard and move to the bluffs. Maybe an order to Reno and Benteen at the time Custer deviated to the bluffs would have been more timely.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 1, 2017 6:33:54 GMT -6
I honestly can not understand your position and doubt that we will agree and that is fine. Discussions are the food of enlightenment and we are providing opposing views for consumption though mine is very low in nutriments!Good man Dave ...all respect. You are insisting that Benteen be held to an impossible standard, your'sNot my standard but the military standard. And to enforce it they sometimes shoot those who are less than "enthusiastic". He made the decision to remain with Reno and await the arrival of the pack trainHe was not concerned about the pack train. The packtrain could have wandered into the valley at ford A for all Benteen cared. I honestly can not understand your position and doubt that we will agree and that is fine.If the battle was a one off affair fought under survival rules then all hail Benteen.But it was not it was fought under military mission rules and that give rise to interminable disagreements. My opinion is that Benteen was on a major sulk brought on by being slapped down by Custer and because of the Elliot incident. His execution of the left oblique is plain sabotage and as for looking after the packs ..... And then he sees Reno's defeated troops and says I knew it, god damn it that man will get us all killed, enough of this sh1te and he just sat down. I think the board should stop trying to defend Benteen via military standards and agree that humanity saved the remainder of the command Always a pleasure Richard
Hi Richard et al
What is clear to me is that Richard starts from his position: My opinion is that Benteen was on a major sulk brought on by being slapped down by Custer and because of the Elliot incident. His execution of the left oblique is plain sabotage and as for looking after the packs ..... And then he sees Reno's defeated troops and says I knew it, god damn it that man will get us all killed, enough of this sh1te and he just sat down.
Richard has no fact to support that Benteen's scout to the left was sabotage. Benteen followed Custer's order even though his personal recommendation was to keep the regiment together. What Richard completely ignores is the large number of Indians willing to fight. Troop movement in the presence of the enemy is different than on a march with no Indians in sight. Some basics are ignored. When on offense it is desirable to have a larger force or at least a concentration of force. On defense you can in general defend against a larger number of enemy forces.
I also think that Richard is applying some standard that he thinks existed in the 7th cavalry in 1876 but the reality is that by simply looking at Custer's communications during the battle they did not exist. What was the plan including the alternate, contingency, and emergency components. What communication did Custer make to his battalion commanders when he deviated from following the advance guard. Look at where Custer decided to send Martin.
In order to accept Richards contention that Benteen was a deviant from 7th cavalry military protocol I would like to see examples of this particular 7th cavalry regiment demonstrating these procedures that Richard believes existed within the 7th cavalry.
Let's say Benteen finds a camp that have 200 warriors to pitch into in SFRC 5 miles up SFRC. Just where would Benteen send a messenger to inform Custer of what he found. The default would be Reno Creek. But the reality is that Custer moved to the bluffs without informing Benteen and more importantly Reno. Just imagine you receive a note to take to Custer. Just where would you ride to? Most likely it would be to Reno in the valley and Reno would think great we are both engaged and where is Custer.
So Custer sets the standard for the 7th cavalry and I don't see where Benteen did not comply within that standard.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 1, 2017 9:44:41 GMT -6
Hi AZ It was not my intention to extend this debate as we had covered everything and you had failed to answer my question. However if you want to shoot yourself in the other foot then I shall manke an exception. The standards I refer to are the same standards applicable to every army worthy of the name since Adam was a boy ; Greeks,Romans,Cartagenians and Slattery's Mounted Foot to mention but a few. If you wish to defend Benteen's performance by comparing it with Custer's [ So Custer sets the standard for the 7th cavalry and I don't see where Benteen did not comply within that standard.] then let me inform you that the Colonel [him of this parish ,held in great esteem]had this to say of Custer ... LTC Custer was, and is, one of the most incompetent officers in the history of the US Army. I'll settle with Benteen conforming to the standard of a gross incompetent. Best Regards Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 1, 2017 10:45:53 GMT -6
Hi Dave Reno's position in the valley was impossible. First off, cavalry are unsuited to a horse fight and outnumbered cavalry on foot are a military joke. The skirmish line was no more than a tactic with which to break contact. All Custer's units because of the numbers business were outflanked from the get go. Reno's skirmish line just could not hold its ground and although the timber offered some respite it was only going to be a matter of time before the Indians figured it. His position now unsupported was untenable and his only recourse was a no frills flight. Cheers Richard Be still my beating heart! We agree! It is Homeric! Regards Dave
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