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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 20, 2017 19:31:39 GMT -6
HiAZ So is your point that Benteen was incompetent and unable to make the best available decision?I want to highlight a pattern of indifference and passineness displayed by Benteen from the time of his "valley hunting" to his retreat from Weir Point. Cheers Richard Hi Richard That would be decision making don't you think? What would competency have to do with it? If being incompetent is the same as indifference and you think that Benteen was incompetent than accordingly indifference would be expected. I think if you rode the area you would understand the valley hunting sarcasm. I believe that Benteen argued with Reno to stay at Weir but Reno won by rank. Benteen also stated in hindsight he thought Reno made the right decision. I think it is hard to determine indifference without being there. What was the indifference in the valley hunting? It ended at a ridge between SFRC and noname. After that they took noname drainage to Reno Creek and Reno Creek to the bluffs. There was no more valley hunting. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Feb 21, 2017 5:04:56 GMT -6
Hi AZ
My non professional opinion is that as much intel that can be gathered while completing a mission is a good thing And soldiers in possession of such intel are obliged to inform those to whom it is pertenent ? If you don't allow someone to go up the Rosebud thier is no one in possession of such intel. The intel I refer to is the intel Benteen received and neglected to pass on to the packs....the command was approaching a big village,Benteen was now directing the packs and the situation was urgent. If the pack commander had this information the packs could have been closed up,the escort deployed in a defensive screen and the entire train speeded up.
That would be decision making don't you think? What would competency have to do with it? If being incompetent is the same as indifference and you think that Benteen was incompetent than accordingly indifference would be expected. No "indifference" is not doing your job.
I think if you rode the area you would understand the valley hunting sarcasm. The sarcasm was aimed at his commanding officer. Benteen so navagated his mission that most of the miles he covered were wasted. He performed a loop with perhaps no more than a mile or so being in the direction of the bluffs to which he was directed and his passage down No Name Creek of 4 miles being a total waste of time. There is a thread ....Did Benteen Dawdel? there are more ways than one of dawdling. Not only did Benteen dawdle but he split his battalion from the main column, adding an extra "march" to his progress to ford A. It is worth examining again the "myth" that Custer split his forces before knowing the strenght of the enemy. Benteen's mission could have been achieved without moving beyond supporting distance of the main column. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 21, 2017 8:58:47 GMT -6
Hi AZ
My non professional opinion is that as much intel that can be gathered while completing a mission is a good thingAnd soldiers in possession of such intel are obliged to inform those to whom it is pertenent ? If you don't allow someone to go up the Rosebud thier is no one in possession of such intel.The intel I refer to is the intel Benteen received and neglected to pass on to the packs.... the command was approaching a big village,Benteen was now directing the packs and the situation was urgent. If the pack commander had this information the packs could have been closed up,the escort deployed in a defensive screen and the entire train speeded up. That would be decision making don't you think? What would competency have to do with it? If being incompetent is the same as indifference and you think that Benteen was incompetent than accordingly indifference would be expected.No "indifference" is not doing your job. I think if you rode the area you would understand the valley hunting sarcasm.The sarcasm was aimed at his commanding officer. Benteen so navagated his mission that most of the miles he covered were wasted. He performed a loop with perhaps no more than a mile or so being in the direction of the bluffs to which he was directed and his passage down No Name Creek of 4 miles being a total waste of time. There is a thread ....Did Benteen Dawdel? there are more ways than one of dawdling. Not only did Benteen dawdle but he split his battalion from the main column, adding an extra "march" to his progress to ford A. It is worth examining again the "myth" that Custer split his forces before knowing the strenght of the enemy. Benteen's mission could have been achieved without moving beyond supporting distance of the main column. Cheers Richard Richard
First let's look at the structure of a court of inquiry. This is not some civilian jury that would be influenced by comments or sarcasm. This was the Army looking at itself. That they allowed comments without censure should be clue to the environment of what was acceptable. That reporters were there and we got to read what occurred is the difference. Just how many court of inquiries has any of us read to make a comparison with the RCOI proceedings?
Benteen stated he thought the regiment should stick together but he followed Custer's order on the direction of travel until he followed the order to return to the main trail. If you know a shorter route to Reno Creek from the point that Gibson marked on a map as presented in Darling's book then lets see it.
I have no clue what you mean in "he split his battalion from the main column, adding an extra "march" to his progress to ford A." That was not Benteen's choice it was an order from Custer. Benteen was given a line of travel. If you think you can cross the drainages close to Reno Creek I would suggest you haven't seen them. At the head of the drainages they are not very steep but by the time they reach Reno Creek not only are the taller they are also bluffed up with steep elevations.
Here is Noname as we exit it.
If you drive down Reno Creek road you see for yourself.
Regards
Steve
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 21, 2017 9:25:25 GMT -6
... but are you referring to an account by a chief named "Two Eagles"? Among many others, including a trooper. Best wishes, Fred. Fred,
Here I go into your outhouse/woodshed. Yet you ignore Godfrey's comments. No translation required.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Bruce Robert on Feb 21, 2017 12:23:10 GMT -6
Greetings,
This brings up a question in my mind. Do we know what message/info was passed on to the baggage train via Benteen or Martini? I would assume they were informed about "the big village," but I know what can happen when we assume, so I ask.
Thanks, Bruce
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dgfred
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by dgfred on Feb 21, 2017 12:34:02 GMT -6
I believe someone (not Benteen) went back to the train and told them to come up.
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Post by Bruce Robert on Feb 21, 2017 12:47:13 GMT -6
Thanks dgfred,
I would also assume (risky business), that the baggage train was not capable of moving much faster, if at all faster, than it had already been moving.
If so, this puts Benteen into a bit of a pickle. "Come quick," and "bring packs." And Custer was well aware of the problems with the baggage train falling (well) behind. At the least, confusing orders given to a commander who doesn't know the overall battle plan, nor where Custer actually is (though I conceed he would have a general idea along with more specific directions from Martini), along with the understanding that while needed, it was not on the basis of Custer being in any kind of trouble. And from this, Benteen is expected to "save the day."
The phrase, "clutching at straws" would be putting it mildly.
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Post by wild on Feb 21, 2017 14:40:34 GMT -6
Hi Bruce
I would also assume (risky business), that the baggage train was not capable of moving much faster, if at all faster, than it had already been moving. As Benteen failed to pass the word back there was no reason why the train would be moving as fast as it could. Why exhaust the animals for no reason?
And from this, Benteen is expected to "save the day." No just his duty. Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Feb 21, 2017 14:52:09 GMT -6
Hi AZ
Benteen stated he thought the regiment should stick together but he followed Custer's order on the direction of travel until he followed the order to return to the main trail. Benteen performed a loop, departing the column at nigh on a 90 degree direction , On this direction he moved out of supporting distance. He then turned back towards the trail . The outward leg and the return leg were a waste of time resulting in him being a significant time behind Custer. Benteen was deployed to the left of the column not detached. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 21, 2017 15:36:00 GMT -6
Thanks dgfred, I would also assume (risky business), that the baggage train was not capable of moving much faster, if at all faster, than it had already been moving. If so, this puts Benteen into a bit of a pickle. "Come quick," and "bring packs." And Custer was well aware of the problems with the baggage train falling (well) behind. At the least, confusing orders given to a commander who doesn't know the overall battle plan, nor where Custer actually is (though I conceed he would have a general idea along with more specific directions from Martini), along with the understanding that while needed, it was not on the basis of Custer being in any kind of trouble. And from this, Benteen is expected to "save the day." The phrase, "clutching at straws" would be putting it mildly. Bruce I agree with you. I think once Custer was across the divide and divided the regiment into moving to contact battalions the pack moved as fast as it could. They were even told to move off the Indians trail because of the dust they were raising. The reason they were there is it was the fastest travel lane. I have no doubt that McDougal did not want to be left out and was moving the pack train as fast as it would go. There is no indication that pack train in the whole could move any faster. I would agree that taking out some ammunition mules then they could move a little faster. Benteen would know that those with the pack train would not want to be left out and were moving those mules as fast as possible. What is convincing to me is that if the mules were moving as fast they could we expect them to string out. That is what is described. I believe they were strung out for a mile. When getting closer to contact they slowed the faster mules to close up the pack train. There is zero accounts that the pack train changed speeds after contact with Kanipe. Benteen knew that Kanipe told him that he had a message for the pack train. Sending the same message again is redundant. Reno sent Hare to separate ammunition mules which were capable of moving faster but the pack train doesn't arrive until the tale end gets there on Reno Hill. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 21, 2017 15:45:11 GMT -6
Hi AZ Benteen stated he thought the regiment should stick together but he followed Custer's order on the direction of travel until he followed the order to return to the main trail.Benteen performed a loop, departing the column at nigh on a 90 degree direction , On this direction he moved out of supporting distance. He then turned back towards the trail . The outward leg and the return leg were a waste of time resulting in him being a significant time behind Custer. Benteen was deployed to the left of the column not detached. Cheers Richard Richard I think it was a 45 degree angle and directed by Custer. I think you have stated Benteen's position. He did believe it was a waste of time. If the Indians would have being fleeing up SFRC he would be the first to make contact and maybe had a different impression. We do night patrols and have up to 10 vehicles say from 10 at night to 2 in the morning. Those in vehicles that make a contact and issue citations have a different impression then the officers sitting in their trucks and doing nothing. Somehow the rough road seem more ad infinitum without the contacts. When you are in pursuit with an airplane up the road leads to the bad guys and you push as fast as you can. Regards Steve
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Post by benteen on Feb 21, 2017 16:03:16 GMT -6
/b] As Benteen failed to pass the word back there was no reason why the train would be moving as fast as it could. Why exhaust the animals for no reason? And from this, Benteen is expected to "save the day."No just his duty. Cheers Richard Hi Richard, Remember,before Martini came with the note, Knipe said he had a message for the pack train. I think it is fair to say that he assumed that Sgt Knipe had already gone back pack train, so why would he send someone else. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Feb 21, 2017 16:17:46 GMT -6
I believe someone (not Benteen) went back to the train and told them to come up. dgfred, I think you may be referring to Sgt Knipe who told Benteen that he had a message for the pack train. Benteen told him that was McDougals responsibility go back and report to him. But there is some doubt that he ever did go to the train, or was even a messenger. Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Feb 21, 2017 16:24:53 GMT -6
... you ignore Godfrey's comments. No translation required. Godfrey wasn't there. Plus, he left behind no comments about any division of command at or beyond Calhoun Hill. That was the issue. Try to get your facts and context straight. < G > Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 21, 2017 16:28:47 GMT -6
I believe someone (not Benteen) went back to the train and told them to come up. SGT Kanipe was the first one claiming he had a message for the packs. He delivered it to Benteen. Benteen told him the packs were to his [Benteen's] rear. Kanipe headed that way, but never delivered the so-called message. Neither Mathey nor McDougall needed to be told where to go. I think the preponderance of shod prints and gunfire gave them a hint. Furthermore, Luke Hare came back for some ammo packs and told Mathey precisely what was cooking. Best wishes, Fred.
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